Do you pre-Amp the DeArmond Rhythm Chief floating pickup?

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Wow. So many questions. If there is some sort of "Audio Hookup Primer" somewhere, point me to it. I hate to ask stupid questions, but...
When I was MUCH younger I started with lot´s of questions - stupid or not - now is payback time :courage:


, so how do I know these things?

What is the definition of "High Impedance DI?" Is there a value I should look for in the specs?


Hello - when talking about passive guitar or bass as source - then high impedance in minimum 100 k-ohm - 1 M-ohm is far better - tube amp inputs are high - some transistor amps may be high - mixer line inputs are low for guitar.

What happens, when input impedance is not high enough ? As impedance comes down from high - first you hear loss of low frequencies - the lower the impedance gets, the worse the sound becomes - eventually you are left with "phone-call from Chicago". Too low input impedance also loads your output so that the level may drop.

The rule of thumb is that input impedance should be at least ten times the source impedance, that is feeding it. The more the merrier.





krysh says: "the audiobox doesn't have have a high ohm input for direct guitar signals" -- is there a spec somewhere that I can start checking to see this?

Unfortunately very few give specs out - they simply say it is great and give us your money.




Also, both the Fishman Aura and the BOSS VE8 have "volume" controls. Is this effectively a pre-amp boost? (if there is such a thing.) And if I am chaining things ... how should I put it together?

I have no experience of those you mentioned - but the MXR Microamp has gain range from 0 to +26dB - zero being unity gain = what goes in comes out at same level. So if you connect MXR and toggle it IN/OUT and you have i.e. your mixer line input next, you should hear difference between those two sounds. As mentioned before -depending on mixer input impedance vs guitar impedance, there may be level difference even at 0db setting.
And that 26dB is pre-amp boost - which you can use to whatever - i.e. compensate low sensitivity of your mixer - overdrive the next stage in your signal chain etc.




Suppose I want to go through the BOSS VE8 AND the Fishman, AND the Audiobox? (I don't know that I do... but suppose...) Are there things I should never try to chain? Is there an implied order? (I am assuming that the Aura goes first, since it literally changes the guitar sound... But is that right?) Do I turn all volume controls on the chain up to Max and then control the overall volume at the guitar?


Chaining different units is quite normal - especially with electric guitars. Basic rule to get good signal-to-noise-ratio is to put all gain-adding devices - such as preamp - overdrive/distortion box - in front to bring level up and choruses, flangers and like later. If you use volume pedal, have it last thing in the chain.
You are supposed to turn the gain up in first unit - but only to a level, that following units can take without distortion - from then on you work more or less with unity gain = 0dB



I'll try it tomorrow night. Funny thing... I have easy access to the church's system. I have no home stereo. So... I'll try it there.

Playing with church pa is safer even if you have home stereo. Home stereo speakers blow their tweeters quite easily with guitars, as it is very easy to produce exessive amount of high frequencies.

Thanks again!


You´re welcome
 
Last edited:

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
Unfortunately very few give specs out - they simply say it is great and give us your money.

Ha! That would be even funnier if it weren't so true! Well, you gave me a lot to look up. I'll try it out and get back to you with more questions, I am sure. Thanks again!
 

Walter Broes

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
5,892
Reaction score
1,961
Location
Antwerp, Belgium
I think your real problem getting heard/cutting through the mix is the bare fingers. great sound, but if you want to be heard in a band context where you're competing with other instruments for sonic space, you're in trouble.

Also, an archtop with a wooden bridge and a floating pickup is another factor - it's a pretty mellow sound compared to a solidbody electric played with a pick.

If you were playing a solidbody too, I'd just say "get a bigger amp" or "dial in some more high mids/treble", but once you get that archtop played with your fingertips loud or present enough to compete, you're probably well into the feedback zone.
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
If you were playing a solidbody too, I'd just say "get a bigger amp" or "dial in some more high mids/treble", but once you get that archtop played with your fingertips loud or present enough to compete, you're probably well into the feedback zone.

I suspect you are on to something. I might need to switch to a thumb pick and grow out my nails more. It's hard to change something I've been doing for forty years, tho!
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
One more

If you have access to multitrack recording you can notice that to make the the mix sound good some instruments have to be tweaked "bad". For clarity and separation it is wise that each instrument has its own spectrum. Like if you have four distorted electric guitars all having same fantastic sound of their own - when you mix them together it is only a mass or big lump unless some guitars are set darker and some brighter etc. Likewise a guitar + banjo + mandolin trio has more separation than a trio with three guitars.
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
So 2 unrelated questions:

If you have access to multitrack recording you can notice that to make the the mix sound good some instruments have to be tweaked "bad". For clarity and separation it is wise that each instrument has its own spectrum. Like if you have four distorted electric guitars all having same fantastic sound of their own - when you mix them together it is only a mass or big lump unless some guitars are set darker and some brighter etc. Likewise a guitar + banjo + mandolin trio has more separation than a trio with three guitars.

How do you multitrack the vocal when using an archtop? The acoustic of Savoy is clearly audible over the mic. I was wondering if there was something I am not aware of. I guess you lay down the guitar track separately and then add vocal to it later?
Secondly... off topic... Can I ask why you got rid of your Artist Award? That's currently my "Guitar Unicorn." I've never even played one, but I love it anyway. I was wondering if it was just a finance thing, or if it isn't the final guitar that I think it is...?
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
So 2 unrelated questions:



How do you multitrack the vocal when using an archtop? The acoustic of Savoy is clearly audible over the mic. I was wondering if there was something I am not aware of. I guess you lay down the guitar track separately and then add vocal to it later?
Secondly... off topic... Can I ask why you got rid of your Artist Award? That's currently my "Guitar Unicorn." I've never even played one, but I love it anyway. I was wondering if it was just a finance thing, or if it isn't the final guitar that I think it is...?


Hello

Multitrack - I mean recording whole orchestra or whatever so that each microphone gets recorded on it´s own track - simultaneously when doing live recording - one track at the time when working solo - or in studio often rhythm section (drums, bass piano, etc) plays their part first - drums on i.e. 8 first tracks - and so on. Then you add other instruments like horn section, string section and backing vocals. Finally enter lead singer, who sings one or more tracks.

Then you mix it all together. By now it comes clear, that to produce ideal mix, some instruments sometimes better sound not ideal , so that they rather support each other than each consuming same area of spectrum. Naturally this can be achieved with "old-fashion" art of arranging. Which reminds me of a film of Glenn Miller - he was hunting for "that sound" while rehearsing Moonlight serenade. One player hurt his lip and had to leave. They did not want to interrupt rehearsing and substituted him with another instrument - BINGO - that was it - the magical sound was there. Hope I remember it correctly. No time for Google here... ( Watermelon )


And now reading the starting question again - electric guitar mostly "cuts through" almost any mix - especially when played with pick. So perhaps simply - CRANK THAT CHANNEL in the mix !!! - cut the low end a bit to avoid BOOM.



Your second question - about Artist Award.

I bought it while working at music store in MN and therefore getting it with mighty discount. Those days I was playing more than now ( thanks to this forum I have started to play more again - watermelon ) and I wanted to experiment with all kinds of guitars. That 3/4-size Gibson in my signature comes from that time - I went through all music stores in Twin City area searching for acoustic archtop - found none, that was interesting - saw few quite fine like Gibson Kalamazoo and Citation ( ser#13 - the one, that was in Gibson broschure ) - the latter were not for sale . . . But I found that little Gibson LG2-3/4.

Next year or so I was back in MN working at James Berns Music and while we were Guild-shop - I ordered me one - sunburst. Very fine guitar indeed. It had two things that I was not so thrilled about. First one was pickguard, which I almost immediately replaced with a new one, that I made using my DE-400 as model. Second was pickup, which I swapped to a little Gibson humbucker, which I modified by opening it and cutting one of the two bar magnets off, so it was only under E-A-D-G providing better balance to my then taste. I also got another bridge, which I carved some to have Barcus-Berry piezo fit underneath the top part. Jack was in the new pickguard - so all alterations were totally reversible. Once, while having talked with Leo about having wound strings only, I strung it with a set of something like 20-65 or 70. There were no such thick guitar strings available, so I took a bass guitar string and replaced the ball to fit into the harp tailpiece. The whole schabang was tuned way down - and it was quite something when amplified - acoustically not so much.

But while 12-string was my main instrument, the AA got too little use - and I felt I do not deserve such fine "jazz-guitar" since I do not play jazz. The headstock size and that picture on it started annoying me a bit, too - so when back here once a fella made me a good offer, I let her go. I probably gave extra pickguard and DeArmond with it, while I have no clue where they might be today.

I have never regretted selling it - unlike I sometimes regret selling my DE-400 - which I would not use anyway - but it was my third guitar and first really good guitar - I got it relatively cheap, while the neck had bow and in my little hometown all musicians thought it can not be fixed. Boy - were they ever surprised when I opened TRC and showed the wrench. Straight as light beam. But that one, too , got too little use because of the F-512 & F-50R - so I ended selling it. Wish I had not - but frankly - it probably gets played more now than in my custody - so it is all well.


Now I am going to open a can of beer
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
So, I played around with some different setups last night. I'm thinking the Fishman Aura -- which was designed to work with an UTS pickup -- doesn't help the Savoy very much.

When I run the Savoy into the VE8, and go out in the XLR cable, I get a terrible hiss in the sound. I switch over to a standard 1/4" jack, and come out of the mono/L line, and it is better, but I still hear s slight Hiss. When I just use the Aura, and plug in there, I also get a pretty bad hiss when I come out of its XLR out.

The Aura was running off of 9Volt power supply (Donner Guitar Effect Pedals Power Supply DP-4 8 Plus Isolated Output). The BOSS VE8 was running on the BOSS 9Volt Power supply they shipped with the unit.

So, my current question is: Where is the hiss coming from. My concern is it might be coming from the Savoy itself. I need to do some isolation and debug the hiss. I have some ideas about that (I sort of debug things for a living -- I'm a tech guy, not a full time Pastor, despite what my avatar says).

Ignoring the Hiss, the Boss lifted the signal on the guitar pretty well. I thought it was pretty loud -- without feedback -- but I didn't have any other instruments present so it is hard to know for sure. I will keep trying.

My question, tho, is I have seen "De-Hummer" and "De-Hiss" pedals. Are they worth adding to the chain?
 

krysh

Guildarist in the mod squad
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
4,417
Reaction score
901
Location
near hamburg*germany
Guild Total
6
So, I played around with some different setups last night. I'm thinking the Fishman Aura -- which was designed to work with an UTS pickup -- doesn't help the Savoy very much.

When I run the Savoy into the VE8, and go out in the XLR cable, I get a terrible hiss in the sound. I switch over to a standard 1/4" jack, and come out of the mono/L line, and it is better, but I still hear s slight Hiss. When I just use the Aura, and plug in there, I also get a pretty bad hiss when I come out of its XLR out.

The Aura was running off of 9Volt power supply (Donner Guitar Effect Pedals Power Supply DP-4 8 Plus Isolated Output). The BOSS VE8 was running on the BOSS 9Volt Power supply they shipped with the unit.

So, my current question is: Where is the hiss coming from. My concern is it might be coming from the Savoy itself. I need to do some isolation and debug the hiss. I have some ideas about that (I sort of debug things for a living -- I'm a tech guy, not a full time Pastor, despite what my avatar says).

Ignoring the Hiss, the Boss lifted the signal on the guitar pretty well. I thought it was pretty loud -- without feedback -- but I didn't have any other instruments present so it is hard to know for sure. I will keep trying.

My question, tho, is I have seen "De-Hummer" and "De-Hiss" pedals. Are they worth adding to the chain?

if you don't have the hiss on a regular amp, it won't be the pickup. try this first. probably some kind of impedance problem.
more pedals also might cause more problems. I'd still vote vor a nice tube preamp with speaker simulation in front of a mixing console.
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Howdy Tech Pastor

Your guitar is passive - so absolutely no hiss coming from there.

If your VE8 is THIS - https://www.thomann.de/fi/boss_ve8_acoustic_singer.htm - it looks, that the outputs are capable of driving active speakers - thus LINE level - which means you have to turn the gain of your mixer down - keep the channel fader round -10-0dB and turn the VE8 output volume loud enough , but not too loud in order not to overdrive. If you have the box output volume low and mixer gain up that is bound to produce hiss.

Experiment.:watermelon:
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
Howdy Tech Pastor

Your guitar is passive - so absolutely no hiss coming from there.

If your VE8 is THIS - https://www.thomann.de/fi/boss_ve8_acoustic_singer.htm - it looks, that the outputs are capable of driving active speakers - thus LINE level - which means you have to turn the gain of your mixer down - keep the channel fader round -10-0dB and turn the VE8 output volume loud enough , but not too loud in order not to overdrive. If you have the box output volume low and mixer gain up that is bound to produce hiss.

Yes! That is it. And this is helpful. It saves me some things to try.
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
if you don't have the hiss on a regular amp, it won't be the pickup. try this first. probably some kind of impedance problem.
more pedals also might cause more problems. I'd still vote vor a nice tube preamp with speaker simulation in front of a mixing console.

I haven't ruled that out yet. Trying first to see if I have what I need already. But I have not ruled out the archer.
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
I found the modified Artist Award bridge with Barcus Berry recessed underneath the top parts - here are some pictures.

img_2898.jpg



img_2897.jpg



img_2896.jpg



Finally a picture of what cold weather does to trees - picture taken with iPhone through windshield while driving - so no chance for any better composition.

img_2891.jpg
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Interesting. Is it used in place of, or used in conjunction with, the DeArmond Rhythm Chief?


Hello

Being me - having soldering iron and endless interest ( when I was young ) I wired all my Guilds in "stereo" - actually two-channel mono. But the jack is stereo jack with separate output for magnetic pickup and piezo. Then I treat them both separately and combine the result in hope to have something decent to feed into pa-system.

Let´s see if I do that same to the newcomer Guild, that came in today . . . first you guys must reveal it ....
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Interesting. Is it used in place of, or used in conjunction with, the DeArmond Rhythm Chief?

I'm sure one could arrange to have it either way and keep both installed, but from what I've read the Barcus-Berry's sound quality isn't that hot by today's standards.
(Edit: I see Nuuska confirmed while I was still composing)
It was pretty revolutionary for its time, though, and Guild even used their "Hot Dots" system for time in mid-late '80's, those were epoxied into each end of the bridge as Nuuska explained, on traditional flattops.
Their primary advantage was reduced tendency to feedback, but a lot of folks feel they produce a "quack" sound. It's a neccessary evil result of their low output signal which tends to clip high frequencies, "IIRC".
In fact kind of surprised to see a piezo p/u on an AA for that reason.
Kind of like putting too-skinny tires on a car designed to corner very well.
 
Top