Guild's nitro finish and the dreaded guitar stand

ClydeTower

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Has anyone else here had the unfortunate incident of finding a rectangle mark on the back of their Guild after leaving it on a "A" frame type guitar stand?

I nearly had a heart attack when I noticed this discoloring on the rosewood back of my mint D55. After reading up on this, I found out to my dismay that the rubber pad on which the guitar rests chemically reacts to nitrocellulose. Since all my other guitars have a poly finish, I've never had such an issue. Thank god I noticed it in time and was able to buff it out with Eterna Shine before it permanently disfigured my guitar... I've read about other mishaps that have ruined the nitro finish such as leaving the capo on the head stock, using certain straps, changing temperatures, etc. I had no idea nitro was so fickle!

Has anyone else had an unfortunate incident with their nitro finish? What else should I look out for?
 

txbumper57

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Make sure when you buy a new stand for it that the areas where the guitar touches the stand are "Nitro Safe". I know that Hercules Brand Stands are supposed to be Nitro finish safe. The only time I have really seen any damage from a non nitro safe stand is when the temperature is warm or it has been left on the stand for long periods of time. Glad you caught it before it made a permanent mark!

TX
 

sailingshoes72

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I use the stand that has a rocking cradle for the lower bout and a yoke for the neck. The kind you have seen for sale in music stores for years. After a bad experience with a blemish on the back of the neck of a new guitar, I took to covering the 3 foam pads with folded material from old flannel shirts of mine. I know that others use socks or mittens.
 

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As a vintage guy who collects vintage guitars I've seen this too many times to count. Hangers have caused havoc on headstocks, too. Look at this old 1973 M75 that someone put into the case with a coily cord on top. The cord reacted with the lacquer and just destroyed it:

Guild-1974-M75-Bluesbird-Controls.jpg



Kudos to Hans who knew what it was because I was flummoxed until he put forth the notion that it was an old guitar cable.

As commented on elsewhere, keep bubble wrap away from your guitar, too:

BubbleWrapGuitar-1.png
 

ClydeTower

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As a vintage guy who collects vintage guitars I've seen this too many times to count. Hangers have caused havoc on headstocks, too. Look at this old 1973 M75 that someone put into the case with a coily cord on top. The cord reacted with the lacquer and just destroyed it:

Kudos to Hans who knew what it was because I was flummoxed until he put forth the notion that it was an old guitar cable.

As commented on elsewhere, keep bubble wrap away from your guitar, too:

Ouch! that's gotta hurt!
 

walrus

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I put the self-gluing felt pads for the bottom of furniture on my stands...

walrus
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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The headstock on my L-20A Yamaha is so darkened from using a Kyser capo that you can't see the letters.
After several emails from me to Kyser, they now warn about the reaction possibility on their product packaging.
They never got back to me but chose to ignore my complaints.
 

adorshki

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Has anyone else had an unfortunate incident with their nitro finish? What else should I look out for?
HI Clyde, no snark intended, but that is yet another reason I have always been notorious here for saying there's only 2 places fit for a good guitar: Your lap or its case.
ESPECIALLY a guitar like a D55.
Sure, there's a lot of folks here who say "Oh, I want to to leave them out so they're easy to grab" and "They're beautiful pieces of art".
To which I say, I can remember at least 3 stories here of guitars being damaged by being knocked over under what would seem the most unlikely of circumstances in the most serene of households.
And keeping 'em cased protects 'em against rapid temperature shift, and prevents dust bunnies from propagating inside 'em.
Think of it as insurance.
And besides, which one of us couldn't use the extra exercise of hefting that case out of wherever you store it (I keep mine in a closet, standing up with handles facing out).
Final benefit:
Opening the case on a guitar like that frequently causes a repeat of the original "Honeymoon Moment"
It took ten years before it didn't happen every time I opened my F65ce.
Y'wanna keep your guitar pristine?
Keep it in the case.
Period.
I'm only tellin' ya this because yer a forum brother and I love you.
:watermelon:

PS: The thing with NCL is that the solvents that dissolve it to make it sprayable continue to outgas for the life of the finish. They're known as VOC's and they breakdown other compounds they come into contact with like rubbers and some vinyls and dies. You're lucky you didn't leave it long enough to create an impossible to buff out gummy mess.
Anyway, this continuous drying out process is what makes NCL get lighter and thinner over the years and is why some of us believe it's one of the elements responsible for guitars sounding better as they get older.
2 other things:
1) Hopefully "Eterna-shine" doesn't contain silicones like most polishes do. It really brings up the sheen on a gloss surface, and it's not directly damaging to NCL< but if it penetrates the finish through sometinmes unnoticeable cracks and contaminates the wood underneath, it can weaken the finish-to-wood bond and make finish touch-up (another good thing about NCL< it's very easily repaired) impossible.
New lacquer can't adhere to silicone contaminated wood.
2) Always wipe down your guitar with at least just a damp cotton cloth after playing, especially that place where your arm rests on the upper bout and especially if you got a bit sweaty.
Human sweat contains acids which will break down and soften up the NCL and make it cloudy over time, if left on to build up.
I learned about that the hard way with my D25, my first NCL-finished guitar.
At least that's somewhat self-repairing if left to dry without fresh exposure for at least a couple of months.
Use cotton like plain old white t-shirts because it won't scratch the lacquer like some synthetics can do.
I recommend against micro-fiber for that reason.
Which I notice Eternal-shine proudly displays one of their products on:
100_3354-Rev3-lo-res_grande.jpg
.
Grrrrr......
 
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ClydeTower

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Y'wanna keep your guitar pristine?
Keep it in the case.
Period.

Hey Al,
I totally agree, and its what I do when I put them to rest at night. All my acoustics are kept in their case. However, I have a few stands around the house where I can temporarily rest the guitar if I'm interrupted while playing or need to take a break for whatever ever reason. I might add that I work from a home office, so I might take out a guitar in the morning and keep it in my office for the day, pick it up and play for 15min when I need a mental break... These days, the D55 is my goto guitar (until the F512 arrives!) so its been on the stand a little more than usual. Gonna have to get me some better stands.. (I admit I have some cheap chinese stands... let that be a lesson to me.)

On the bright side, its given me the opportunity to read and learn about nitrocellulose. I was mostly a Taylor guy before, which have poly finishes as you know, but have since begun to search out new tones, and other builders, which has brought me to Guild. I just love the history behind it.

I also stand guilty of staring at my guitars when I'm not playing them. There's something just so damn sexy about them, the wood, the craftsmanship, the smell... I've never cheated on my wife expect when I play my guitars :) ... god I sound like a pervert.:tongue-new:
 
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ClydeTower

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1) Hopefully "Eterna-shine" doesn't contain silicones like most polishes do. It really brings up the sheen on a gloss surface, and it's not directly damaging to NCL< but if it penetrates the finish through sometinmes unnoticeable cracks and contaminates the wood underneath, it can weaken the finish-to-wood bond and make finish touch-up (another good thing about NCL< it's very easily repaired) impossible.
New lacquer can't adhere to silicone contaminated wood.
2) Always wipe down your guitar with at least just a damp cotton cloth after playing, especially that place where your arm rests on the upper bout and especially if you got a bit sweaty.
Human sweat contains acids which will break down and soften up the NCL and make it cloudy over time, if left on to build up.
I learned about that the hard way with my D25, my first NCL-finished guitar.
At least that's somewhat self-repairing if left to dry without fresh exposure for at least a couple of months.
Use cotton like plain old white t-shirts because it won't scratch the lacquer like some synthetics can do.
I recommend against micro-fiber for that reason.
Which I notice Eternal-shine proudly displays one of their products on:
100_3354-Rev3-lo-res_grande.jpg
.
Grrrrr......

Very valuable advice!
I will make sure to check that there is no silicone in Eterna Shine.
Thanks Al :)

UPDATE: I just checked out the Eterna Shine website. Here's what it says:

Is it safe to use on my precious instrument, any harsh chemicals? Absolutely safe & no harsh chemicals or fumes; our polishes are environmentally friendly & silicone-free. We have thousands of happy customers! Follow the detailed directions and you will never, ever damage your finish with GuitarScratchRemover polishes! Whether it's Fender, Gibson, Gretsch, Taylor, Martin, Ibanez, Epiphone, Jackson, and other big name factory guitars, you are good to go on your high gloss finish! It is safe even on a $5000 high-end acoustic dreadnought, or vintage electrics. Works on classical & bass guitars, too. Not for non-gloss or satin finishes. Use as directed. Not for unfinished wood or areas without a high gloss finish. See below question about "Any guitars I can't use this on" and note about Rickenbacker guitars. Please tell us at checkout about your brand & guitar model.

Lacquer, poly, nitrocellulose (nitro) guitar finishes, thin nitro, all okay? These high gloss guitar & bass finishes are safe to polish and it's ok to use any of our products. Even thin nitro finishes are fine to polish (note that thin finishes are a bit more delicate than a standard finish). Many high-end guitars like Martin, Gibson Les Paul & many Fender Stratocasters have a nitrocellulose lacquer finish. Our products are completely safe to use on these high gloss finishes. Works on high gloss drums, too! Just follow the separate instruction sheet included with each order and you'll be all set! For more info see question: "Any guitars I can't use this on?"
 
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adorshki

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I also stand guilty of staring at my guitars when I'm not playing them. There's something just so damn sexy about them, the wood, the craftsmanship, the smell... I've never cheated on my wife expect when I play my guitars :) ... god I sound like a pervert.:tongue-new:
Mm-hmm.
Why do you think I call it the "Honeymoon Moment"?
:glee:

Whoopsie, speak of the devil here's story number 4, just posted today in the "My First Guild" thread, about why you should put it back in its case every time, period:

Six years ago, I walked through my living room to find my 1971 Aria laying on the floor with the headstock snapped off. I'd had the guitar since new and it was the only acoustic I had ever owned. I still have the pieces. Either my daughters or their children had accidently knocked the guitar over and ended it.
 
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GardMan

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HI Clyde, no snark intended, but that is yet another reason I have always been notorious here for saying there's only 2 places fit for a good guitar: Your lap or its case.
ESPECIALLY a guitar like a D55.
Sure, there's a lot of folks here who say "Oh, I want to to leave them out so they're easy to grab" and "They're beautiful pieces of art".
To which I say, I can remember at least 3 stories here of guitars being damaged by being knocked over under what would seem the most unlikely of circumstances in the most serene of households.
And keeping 'em cased protects 'em against rapid temperature shift, and prevents dust bunnies from propagating inside 'em.
Think of it as insurance.
And besides, which one of us couldn't use the extra exercise of hefting that case out of wherever you store it (I keep mine in a closet, standing up with handles facing out).
Final benefit:
Opening the case on a guitar like that frequently causes a repeat of the original "Honeymoon Moment"
It took ten years before it didn't happen every time I opened my F65ce.
Y'wanna keep your guitar pristine?
Keep it in the case.
Period.

Just to give a different perspective...
In January 1973, I spent $265 to buy my first good acoustic guitar, a 1972 Guild D-35. It was over my budget, so the shop loaned me a chipboard case to carry it home on the bus, and a month later (after my next payday) I went back and purchased the "official" Guild-branded hard shell case for $35. Now, $300 was a lot of $$$ to a 17 year old back in 1973... and that guitar was my pride and joy. When I wasn't playing it, it was always put back in its case... and we went off to college together in the fall of '73.

It wasn't much later (definitely my first year in school), that I noticed a patch of finish on the back of the neck getting soft and gummy... and it didn't take long to realize the patch was where the neck rested on the padded neck support in the case (by the time I had noticed it, it was accumulating purple fuzz from the case lining). Outgassing from the foam padding or glue was reacting with the nitrocellulose.... Eventually, a spot of finish the size of a half dollar was rubbed off. I 'spose I could have sent it back for repair under warranty, but I didn't think of those things back then. It didn't affect the playability or tone... and I still have that old Guild, much abused thru the years.

I guess my point is, not every case is a safe haven for a guitar. I have my five Guilds out and accessible: four (including the DV-7Xs) on Hercules hangers and one on a NC-safe stand. I am constantly checking to make sure there is no softening of the NC finish where they hang or rest (my old G-37 had finish damage from a non-NC safe hanger when I bought it).
 
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Thie sunburst F50r I recently bought has one mark on each side of the headstock where it meets the neck, from previous owner having it on a hanger! Sad...but I don’t think the guitar or stand/hanger manufacturers do enough to make people aware of the issue.
 

adorshki

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Thie sunburst F50r I recently bought has one mark on each side of the headstock where it meets the neck, from previous owner having it on a hanger! Sad...but I don’t think the guitar or stand/hanger manufacturers do enough to make people aware of the issue.
What, and warn off potential buyers no matter the risk to their guitars?
 

adorshki

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UPDATE: I just checked out the Eterna Shine website. Here's what it says:

Is it safe to use on my precious instrument, any harsh chemicals? Absolutely safe & no harsh chemicals or fumes; our polishes are environmentally friendly & silicone-free.

OK that's good, that's very very good.
However the cynic in me was just aroused (post #15) and I now wonder if they're fully aware that using a microfiber cloth on NCL may actually be the source of dulling that in turn stimulates repeated application of the product?
Naaahhhhh...
What kind of cloth do they provide, or do they provide a cloth?
 
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What, and warn off potential buyers no matter the risk to their guitars?

Yeah, huh? Would it be that hard to find a different material to use? If they KNOW there’s an issue with the rubber-foam-ish stuff they are using, isn’t there something else they could use? Or offer “socks”, soft cloth covers that are custom fit for the stands?
 

adorshki

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Just to give a different perspective...
It wasn't much later (definitely my first year in school), that I noticed a patch of finish on the back of the neck getting soft and gummy... and it didn't take long to realize the patch was where the neck rested on the padded neck support in the case (by the time I had noticed it, it was accumulating purple fuzz from the case lining). Outgassing from the foam padding or glue was reacting with the nitrocellulose....
Not to relieve the maker of responsibility but I'd bet that was one of the new compounds like expanded polyurethane foam back then (since outlawed for, guess what, toxic outgassing), and nobody'd considered the potential for interaction.
Still, my sympathies.
I guess my point is, not every case is a safe haven for a guitar.
Point taken but still my reason is more about preventing breakage damage than anything else.
I must admit the possibility that a Guild case itself could cause finish damage wasn't on my mind although your story reminds me of a Febreze-treated case damaging Qvart's guitar many years ago.
We all assumed it was the Febreze itself.
And now that you mention it, I seem to recall somebody also raising questions about the glue in New Hartford cases recently? Like humidity causing it to leach outside of the padding and coming into contact with the instrument, or something like that?
IIRC the blemish was correctable but a hassle.

I have my five Guilds out and accessible: four (including the DV-7Xs) on Hercules hangers and one on a NC-safe stand. I am constantly checking to make sure there is no softening of the NC finish where they hang or rest (my old G-37 had finish damage from a non-NC safe hanger when I bought it).
Yeah, I also admit there may be a place for stands for performers, but for those who must keep 'em out, I like Walrus' method best: put a piece of felt on there.
 
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ClydeTower

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What kind of cloth do they provide, or do they provide a cloth?

I don't remember if it came with a cloth, I've had the stuff for a year, never had an opportunity to really test it out. I can say that in this instance, it worked well (no affiliation with Eterna Shine).

I will admit I've used microfiber cloth on my guitars when cleaning them, the same kind I use to detail my car. But now you've got me wondering... I think I'll be recycling some old cotton T-shirts.
 

adorshki

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Yeah, huh? Would it be that hard to find a different material to use? If they KNOW there’s an issue with the rubber-foam-ish stuff they are using, isn’t there something else they could use? Or offer “socks”, soft cloth covers that are custom fit for the stands?

In past we've let 'em off the hook (so to speak) by acknowledging that new NCL-finished guitars are very small minority these days, but this time I thought to myself:
"So what? What about all those vintage axes out there, and those're the ones that'd be the most devalued and insulted by the maker's indifference to potential damage to their fragile finishes."
It's kind of like an implied warranty of suitability to the purpose thing:
If it's possible for their product to damage something in its intended application, it should be disclosed.
But hey everybody knows musicians are an easy mark.
:shocked:
 
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