If You Were Restoring the Sound of a Westerly D40C...?

PittPastor

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If anyone remembers, my #1 Guild is a Westerly D40C. It has a very low saddle height, and my belief is that it came that way from the factory. (I was a 20-something who knew nothing about guitars when I bought it.) So, for 30-some years, my Guild has had crazy low action, and a more mellow sound than it should have had.

Basically, the place where a lot of guitars get after 40 years, and several saddle shavings, is where mine started -- but the good news is it somehow hung on, and has never had any saddle/neck work done.

I'm thinking of investing in the D40C and bringing it back to the original design. This will certainly mean a neck reset. I'll also need a new saddle. I'm thinking of having the saddle replaced with bone. I can also have the nut replaced with bone -- but I'm wondering if the difference in tone is really worth it?

The Guild also suffered a horrific accident when it was caught between two large dogs who were wrestling and it got thrown about 6 feet where it split along the side. It was repaired about 15 years ago. Stuart says it was not cleated (which made him frown) but was heavily super-glued. And the repair has held for over a decade. Other than that it is in good shape, with some nicks and dents and some areas it could probably use some nitrocellulose filler.

Last year, I had a Fishman Matrix Under the Saddle pickup installed. I hated the sound I got from it, but when I finally broke down and got the Fishman Aura, at least the sound I get now is one I like -- even if it doesn't exactly sound like "My Guild only louder" which was my original goal.

So, the questions are -- if this were you --

1) Neck reset: Local Luthier or Guild Specialist?
I live near Stuart Day of Stuart Day Guitars (http://www.stuartdayguitars.com). The guy knows his guitars. And he has a pretty strong reputation for worksmanship -- especially in archtops. But, Guilds are kind of notorious for being problem children when it comes to a neck reset. Would you go with the local luthier you knew? Or would you reach out to a certified Guild repair shop? (And if so, which one?)

2) Replacing the saddle with bone seems like a natural decision. I've read the tone difference is dramatic. Is it? Is it worth the cost? Or does it take a really refined ear to pick up the difference?

3) Same question about the nut. Should it be bone as well?

4) What other reasonable things can be done while we are at it? What would you do if it were your number 1?

TIA!
 

davismanLV

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Sounds like this is a guitar you love and as such it's worth the effort. Not for resale (you'll never get that money back out of it) but from an "I love this guitar" point of view it seems worth it. Once you're doing that kind of work, the difference between bone and other materials is rather small comparatively so if you're gonna go.... GO BIG!!

I too bought a guitar back in the day (1995) back when I didn't know about such things as neck angles and string height and all of that. The first guitar I bought I returned because the neck was warped. So they sent me another one. Neck as straight as can be. And it's been a great guitar. The action is low and the saddle is also so low that, if it ever moves, this guitar is done because I doubt it's worth the money for a reset. But it's been a champ all these years.

Changing the geometry will change the sound (for the better) by creating more down pressure on the saddle because of the better neck angle. Only you can decide if it's worth it to you. You'll never get the money back if you sell it, but if you're gonna keep and play it, get the work done. And go with bone. It's not that much more expensive.

Not sure about this "experienced vs. local that I know" kinda thing. Which one do you have more confidence in. Have they both seen the guitar and given you estimates and talked to you about it? That will probably tell you a LOT and make your decision easier.

Good LUCK!!
 

swiveltung

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The bone nut maybe not that big a deal. Only some strings are open at any given chord anyway. I think a bone bridge insert can give you just a touch more "crisp" or "edge", but it's pretty subtle. So you have to decide if you want more "crisp".
It seems you are saying it plays fine, so not sure..... why do the neck reset? Anything that major has some risk I suppose, and surely the finish interface at the neck body joint will be gone.
 

davismanLV

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Correct neck geometry relative to the bridge, saddle, and soundboard will change the sound significantly. Right now the soundboard is not being driven well (from what he's saying) because the break angle on the strings is flat. If that's not the case, then I've interpreted his information incorrectly. Chime in guys...... all you who are status post neck resets (on your guitars).......... :tongue-new:
 

bobouz

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A few points to consider:

> The stock Guild bridge from the '70s (and I assume still in 1980 - the year of your guitar) has the saddle located very close to the pin holes. This is a good thing, imho, as it means you still get a significant break angle on the strings when the saddle is low.

> Many Guild bridges have a lot of height to them, with plenty of room to be shaved. I'd certainly consider this before jumping into a neck reset.

> Conventional wisdoms are not a guarantee that modifications will produce a superior tone - they may, or may not. If you like the tone of your guitar right now, forego the irreversible changes if at all possible & do the easy stuff first - then see where that leaves you.

So I would recommend starting out with a simple switch of the saddle to bone or tusq. Either one should make a noticeable difference compared to the stock micarta saddle. I personally like the punchy tone that tusq typically produces.
 

beecee

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Bobouz brings up a good point. How is the break angle?

Got any pix?

Also



I'd be hesitant to send it to someone who thinks Guild neck resets are troublesome. There are a few luthiers mentioned here often who most swear by, not at. Fixit is one, I can't remember the others but I read nothing but great things about them over the past few years I've been here.
 

fronobulax

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My opinion, not necessarily worth the paper it's printed on :)

Anecdotally I believe the claim that Guild necks are hard to reset approaches the status of an urban myth. When the claim is made by a luthier or repair person what it really means is: a) I don't have the skill to handle the unexpected or anything beyond the most basic neck reset; or b) I don't have the time or interest to do it so I'll blow you off with some other excuse. Yes there are factors that make the job harder that seem to occur with some Guilds more than other brands but I believe the blanket generalization says more about the people making it than the brand.

That out of the way, if you have any rapport with the local guy I'd go there if s/he is willing to tackle the job. Once the basic skill to do the job is established, communications are probably the next most important thing about the job and the local guy is more likely to keep you informed, good or bad, then someone far away. That said, if you have concerns about the skill, just bite the bullet and sent it to Fixit, Tom Jacobs (and his trusty sidekick Dave) in Florida. They are authorized Guild repair, although I'm not sure how important that is for an instrument over a decade old and not under warranty, and have a stellar reputation. They will stay in contact and even send or post pictures. The worst thing I have heard about working with them is the anxiety and cost associated with shipping to Florida and waiting for confirmation that they trip did not introduce any damage.

I sense a minor conflict between the goals of restoring it to the original design and considering a new nut and saddle. You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in this particular instrument so you might get better advice by asking about things that can make it sound and play as good as possible.
 
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A data point re: Guild neck resets. All my instruments currently go to an extraordinarily skilled and experienced tech--one of the very best in our region. He says that the recent reset of my '65 D-40 is the hardest he has ever done--and he's been at it for better than 30 years. Part of this might be thanks to a reset done 25 years ago by a less-experienced repairman*, but that was only part of it. So the challenges of working on a Guild neck joint might not be mere urban legend. What I don't think is urban legend is the rarity of first-rate repair/restoration specialists. There's one other shop in my area that I'd trust with my guitars--after that, the next choice is in New York City. (To be fair, there might be younger/newer techs in Minnesota, thanks to the instrument repair/building program at Minnesota State College Southeast in Red Wing--but good training is only the beginning. My guys are all well over fifty, with 25+ years of experience.)

* He got better, but his work on my D-40 was part of his learning curve. And of mine.
 

Rayk

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In my opinion bone is definitely worth it along bone bridge pins .

That is something you could do with basic skills and common sense .

Your story of the dogs seems familiar I read that before lol

Anyway if you feel the guitar is worth it to you then do it and don’t look back ! 😁
 

PittPastor

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Sounds like this is a guitar you love and as such it's worth the effort. Not for resale (you'll never get that money back out of it) but from an "I love this guitar" point of view it seems worth it.

Oh yeah, you are right. This is not a "I want to restore it to resell it" deal. I'm not going to ever sell it.


> Many Guild bridges have a lot of height to them, with plenty of room to be shaved. I'd certainly consider this before jumping into a neck reset.

This one is uncommonly low. I think they already shaved it to compensate for the neck angle when it left the factoyr. I suspect it was a "B" stock Guild -- though it was not presented to me as such at the time. I can't really complain tho since it has held up for 37 years now.


Bobouz brings up a good point. How is the break angle?
Got any pix?

No, but I can fix that. I will try to get some taken and post them.

That out of the way, if you have any rapport with the local guy I'd go there if s/he is willing to tackle the job. Once the basic skill to do the job is established, communications are probably the next most important thing about the job and the local guy is

... You seem to have a lot of emotion invested in this particular instrument so you might get better advice by asking about things that can make it sound and play as good as possible.

I have pretty good rapport with Stuart. I'll probably take it in to him and talk it over with him first, explaining things I have heard. Maybe even try to find some of the horror stories out there. Stuart doesn't lack from confidence tho, my guess is he isn't worried that he will be able to do it.

As for the other question, that is actually more what I am trying to find out. Given that I do not have unlimited funds, but I do want to invest some money in an instrument that I do have some fondness for... what is the best bang for the buck?

A data point re: Guild neck resets. All my instruments currently go to an extraordinarily skilled and experienced tech--one of the very best in our region. He says that the recent reset of my '65 D-40 is the hardest he has ever done

And that's exactly my concern. But your guy got through it OK? Because at the end of the day that's what really matters.

Rayk: Bone pins? Really? I'd nerver even heard of that.

Thanks all! Keep the advice coming.
 

gilded

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Frono, old friend, you are off base on this one.

It's not impossible to reset a Guild neck, but it's harder to do than on all Martins and darn near most Gibsons. If you've pulled one Martin neck, you know where to place the needles to steam out the next neck and indeed every neck back to the 1800s.

With Guilds, there is very little consistency between the dimensions and placements of the dove tail from one batch to another. (Okay, maybe the Tacoma and New Hartford guitars are uniform, but no one has written about that). It's not like, 'the dove tail is located in one place in the '70s and another place from '80 to '95,' or, 'Tacoma necks are built like this but Westerly dovetails are in the following place,' etc.

Another thing, on a Martin you take out the 14th or 15th fret (I forget which one), drill two steam holes straight down and you're set. With a Guild, you have to drill around and find the pocket and even then, you gotta move your steam needles into strange places (strange angles) and then hope you hit the pocket correctly. One luthier did a '69 D-35 for me and said that he had to angle the steam needles back towards the heel of the neck from the appropriate fret and also 'V' angle the steam needles slightly towards the center or the neck to make it work. That won't happen on Martins. Gibsons are fairly consistent, too, but I think they had some issues with narrow-heeled necks in the '40s and early '50s.

A lot of Guild necks have a ton of glue in the dove-tail and it's hard to super-heat all that goop up with steam and move the neck out quickly. Time is of the essence in neck removal and the uncertainty can really contribute to collateral damage.

This is info that I have gotten over the years from luthiers that I trust and have worked with and paid for their services. I didn't read about it, I learned it from people with first hand knowledge.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Harry
 

beecee

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Frono, old friend, you are off base on this one.

It's not impossible to reset a Guild neck, but it's harder to do than on all Martins and darn near most Gibsons. If you've pulled one Martin neck, you know where to place the needles to steam out the next neck and indeed every neck back to the 1800s.

With Guilds, there is very little consistency between the dimensions and placements of the dove tail from one batch to another. (Okay, maybe the Tacoma and New Hartford guitars are uniform, but no one has written about that). It's not like, 'the dove tail is located in one place in the '70s and another place from '80 to '95,' or, 'Tacoma necks are built like this but Westerly dovetails are in the following place,' etc.

Another thing, on a Martin you take out the 14th or 15th fret (I forget which one), drill two steam holes straight down and you're set. With a Guild, you have to drill around and find the pocket and even then, you gotta move your steam needles into strange places (strange angles) and then hope you hit the pocket correctly. One luthier did a '69 D-35 for me and said that he had to angle the steam needles back towards the heel of the neck from the appropriate fret and also 'V' angle the steam needles slightly towards the center or the neck to make it work. That won't happen on Martins. Gibsons are fairly consistent, too, but I think they had some issues with narrow-heeled necks in the '40s and early '50s.

A lot of Guild necks have a ton of glue in the dove-tail and it's hard to super-heat all that goop up with steam and move the neck out quickly. Time is of the essence in neck removal and the uncertainty can really contribute to collateral damage.

This is info that I have gotten over the years from luthiers that I trust and have worked with and paid for their services. I didn't read about it, I learned it from people with first hand knowledge.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Harry

ya just can't pay enough for this info. And we get it here for free!!!!!

Thanks Gilded.

.
 

Br1ck

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There is much to consider here.

Attachment: certainly there is no reason not to follow your heart on this one. Money has been spent on far worse things.

Tone: Are your expectations realistic? I doubt the improvement will be drastic. Improved is pretty much to be expected.

Value: Pretty much run the bath water right now.

Big picture: Have you played something like a D 18 and really wished you had one? Or a J 45, or a D 55? What do you truely want?


Now here is my D 35 story: twenty years ago, I was at Gryphon in Palo Alto. There was a 1970 D 35 with a price of $250 marked as a project. Neck angle bad, bridge already shaved to nothing, frets shot, neck finish sanded off, and it was pretty beat up. It sounded pretty darned good. I remember when I was paying, Richard said to me: just realize you are not buying this to save money. Truer words were never spoken.

Guitar sat in the closet for 18 years before I took the plunge. Gryphon did not want to invest in the guitar as they thought they would never make money on it. I found a repair shop that was a Guild service center for over thirty years. Left it there for the works. Sourced a Brazilian bridge from Hans Moust. A year later, I was the 53rd major job in the shop, I got the guitar back with the neck reset, fingerboard planed, refreted, new nut, saddle, bridgepins, and neck refinished. It plays and sounds great. I live in a major expensive city. I paid $1100. I took them a couple hundred every time I had a little extra, so my final payment was $300. In all that time I never played a guitar I would have rather had for $1500 or less. $2500? Yes, a few old sixties D 18s, but the whole episode was a crapshoot.

There are many here who would not pay me $800 for the guitar, but every time I hear a generic Taylor, LOL, I'm glad I spent the money.
 

davismanLV

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I'm with Harry. These things are tough to do. With really specific building methods and exacting standards, things can be undone. I'm no expert but taking a neck of is really difficult. I've only done one. Don's last build didn't exactly come out right. (Which is why the build thread died) and once the neck was set wrong.... it had to be undone. So we got the equipment and got the steamers and used the tried and true method and ..... they don't always come off. Not easily anyway. So after multiple tries and effort.... he said, "Can you help me get this neck off?" Well, yeah, I can but the thing is ..... I'm not a pro and collateral damage is not something I want to be responsible for!!! The response was, "This guitar is crap like this.... if it breaks, so what?" So after that negotiation, we steamed and steamed and drilled and drilled and steamed some more and finally I WHACKED that neck so hard.....

that it came off. And nothing broke. And I feel very lucky. And the fretboard was toast, but they separated. However, I put myself in a luthiers place and thought, MY GOD!! Everyone thinks these thing just come off. And they don't.

Which is why I'm a HUGE fan of bolt on necks. If my Taylor or Breedlove ever have a problem.... BOOM a couple hundred dollars or maybe three.... and the job is done.

Pitt Pastor..... no one knows your guitar like you do and no one has seen or played it. The one who has to be satisfied (or unsatisfied) is YOU. What do you think? Tell me.......
 

PittPastor

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Pitt Pastor..... no one knows your guitar like you do and no one has seen or played it. The one who has to be satisfied (or unsatisfied) is YOU. What do you think? Tell me.......

This thread is the reason I love this forum. Lots of very good and informed responses.

I'm going to have a conversation with Stuart. And I will include some of the things said here (I'll print them off). I have confidence that he is the kind of luthier who can do this. And I believe he takes enough pride in his work that if something does break or is damaged, he will repair it to the point it will be unseeable. But is that worth it to him? Maybe a Guild specialist is a better idea.

I'll try to take it in and speak with him this week and see what he thinks. He might rethink doing it (or his price anyway!) or he might shrug and say: "I am trained for this. It's no big deal for me."

But this has been really great! Any more thoughts or experiences, please let me know.
 

Rayk

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If I ever do a neck set after reading that I’m making a doctors appointment for an exray ! Lol
 

fronobulax

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Frono, old friend, you are off base on this one.

No problem. It has happened before and will happen again. I base my comments on what I read here, what I remember and what a couple locals have told me. I guess the keys here are build consistency and skill level. It is certainly a lot easier if the steam holes go in the same place every time but I think I'd rather use the luthier who can handle the unexpected, i.e. the steam holes need to be elsewhere. But if you don't get them right the first time, the job will take longer so I need to rein in on the "absolutes". Thank you.
 
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