Questions about vintage Guild M20s

ClydeTower

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Anybody here knowledgeable about Hoboken/Westerly era M20s? (aside from the whole Nick Drake thing)

How desirable are they compared to the new modern MIA versions and what is the ballpark value of a 60s M20?

Any particular aspects of the vintage M20s one should be aware of if looking to pick up one of these?

Thx!

Clyde
 
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phinegan

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Nick Drake never played an M-20.
There’s no comparison between a vintage M-20 and a current MIA version.
Regards
Dan
 

ClydeTower

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Hi Dan,

Nick Drake never played an M-20.

Yep that I know, it seems though there's no shortage of people associating the Nick Drake tone to the M20 because of that infamous Bryter Layter album cover. Aside from all that, as an instrument, what can you tell me about the vintage m20... do you own one?


There’s no comparison between a vintage M-20 and a current MIA version.

What do you mean exactly? Is one considered better, more desirable than the other?
 

adorshki

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Anybody here knowledgeable about Hoboken/Westerly era M20s? (aside from the whole Nick Drake thing)

How desirable are they compared to the new modern MIA versions and what is the ballpark value of a 60s M20?

Any particular aspects of the vintage M20s one should be aware of if looking to pick up one of these?

Thx!

Clyde
HI Clyde,
Besides the usual caveats about issues normally to be expected with any 50+year old guitar, I think the most commonly mentioned issue is that original M20's will have 1-5/8 nuts, the new ones have 1-3/4.
Of apparently lesser importance to recent purchasers is that the new ones have mortise & tenon ("bolt-on") neck joints.
Prior to this Guild was almost 100% hide-glued dovetail neckjoints.
(There was an ill-fated experiment with a different type of bolt-on system in Tacoma, used in the "Contemporary series")
Last but not least the new M20's are finished with "catalyzed varnish", the originals had gloss NCL.
Off the top of my head, I think there's been like, 5 new owner reports of the new version, and I think I only recall one that was returned for dissatisfaction with tone, although there's also been some grumbling about QC related to finish issues.
I don't think we've ever found out what exactly the "catalyzed varnish" is.
 

ClydeTower

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HI Clyde,
Besides the usual caveats about issues normally to be expected with any 50+year old guitar, I think the most commonly mentioned issue is that original M20's will have 1-5/8 nuts, the new ones have 1-3/4.
Of apparently lesser importance to recent purchasers is that the new ones have mortise & tenon ("bolt-on") neck joints.
Prior to this Guild was almost 100% hide-glued dovetail neckjoints.
(There was an ill-fated experiment with a different type of bolt-on system in Tacoma, used in the "Contemporary series")
Last but not least the new M20's are finished with "catalyzed varnish", the originals had gloss NCL.
Off the top of my head, I think there's been like, 5 new owner reports of the new version, and I think I only recall one that was returned for dissatisfaction with tone, although there's also been some grumbling about QC related to finish issues.
I don't think we've ever found out what exactly the "catalyzed varnish" is.

Thank Al, that's what I needed to know. So it basically comes down to if I could live with a 1 5/8" nut... I dunno about that... that's pretty narrow, especially that the intention is to mostly play fingerstyle. Tony P gives the new M20 a pretty good review, but I was kinda feeling to urge for a nice vintage all hog small body. Had my sights on a Martin 000-15 12 fret, but I gotta say, when I compared the tone of the M20 to the 000-15, the Guild sounds way better to my ears... I'm really surprised, thought this would be in Martin's wheelhouse.
 
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Kitarkus

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Anybody here knowledgeable about Hoboken/Westerly era M20s? (aside from the whole Nick Drake thing)

How desirable are they compared to the new modern MIA versions and what is the ballpark value of a 60s M20?

Any particular aspects of the vintage M20s one should be aware of if looking to pick up one of these?

Thx!

Clyde

Hello Clyde. I don't claim to be an expert, however, I have spent a fair amount of time seeking out, researching, and now playing a vintage M-20. The vintage M-20's...particularly the Hoboken models have almost a cult-ish following and seem to have only increased in popularity. I have to believe that this is one of the reasons that Guild began their acoustic production at their new plant by a re-introduction of this particular model (and because this is a relatively easily built and simple instrument). To put it simply, the new MIA M-20's are readily available new or barely used in abundance for approximately $1K +/-. The new MIA version spec is very similar to vintage, however, as was stated earlier in this thread the nut/neck width is very different. The vintage M-20's generally will have a particularly narrow 1 5/8" nut width while the new MIA went to a 1 3/4". I cannot speak for the new MIA tone quality and have heard mixed reactions. I do think that one must be objective when discussing the quality of tone for such a small body and all mahogany guitar. These are after all very small guitars...most competing shape/size wise with a 0 size guitar.

I purchased a 1968 M-20 in cosmetically excellent condition which I knew was in need of a neck reset for approx. $800 shipped. Beware that some luthiers charge substantially more to reset a Guild neck than they would charge for a Martin or similar (at least in my area). If you need bridge work, fret work etc....you could have substantial costs to bring an old M-20 back to playable and highly marketable condition...and having $1000 in repairs (unless you know a good and inexpensive luthier) is entirely plausible. Though I s'pose it is possible, I suspect that the vast preponderance of old vintage M-20's that have never had a neck reset or other work performed are likely to need some if not all of these repair items.

I was on a personal mission to obtain one of the vintage M-20's and I am very pleased with my instrument. Never say never....but I cannot see myself parting with it. I have considerable money invested after purchase & necessary repairs & a suitable hard shell case...say $1500 +/-. I see these listed on Reverb frequently at very high prices....often even $2K+....but I cannot tell you whether the Sellers ever actually obtain those high dollars. I can tell you that the vintage M-20's see strong market demand and I often observe people seeking these little gems. I have little doubt that I could recoup my investment if I desired to sell....but I have my doubts as to whether I could obtain $2K+ or thereabouts (my own personal instrument issues aside). The Vintage Price Guide for 2018 reports exc. lo to exc. hi for 1960-1969 M-20's is $1250 to $1650.

As one could expect from an 0 sized (or similar) all hog guitar....these have a sound all their own. Some find them simply 'boxy' and lacking headroom....and while I cannot entirely argue with their point....my M-20 is incredibly sweet sounding, fun, easy to play, very responsive, and within this guitar shape/size/wood genre....hard to beat!. Among other generally competing guitars....my M-20 is a real jewel and often makes me break out in smile while playing. The nut width is quite small on the vintage M-20's.....I'd think that electric players would be drawn to this. For those that find even the 1 11/16" nuts/necks cramp inducing....well....the vintage M-20 would not be for them at all. As Mavuser said on this forum once relating to M-20's...."play small"....and Mavuser is exactly right. No Pete Townsend windmills on these things!....but played "small" or reasonably gently....these little vintage M-20's have "it". I flat-pick almost exclusively with mine...I play small...and I love it.

As with all vintage guitars...condition is everything. A 60's M-20 should have braz fretboard and bridge (CITES could be an issue for you in Canada depending on where the Seller is located), all hog body, hog neck, 3 in a row tuners. Year dependent....the headstock may differ a bit...later 60's having a laminated layer which most often shows some shrinkage. The serial numbers are ambiguous in the 60's for these...with most corresponding to "1965", however, the actual year may vary just a bit. Mine shows 1965 but per Hans Moust is actually a 1968. These vintage gems are often beat to hell with obvious wear, damage, and (again) poor neck angle. IMO most are worth fixing. Also IMO....you are a bit late to the party ....as vintage fixer M-20's will usually cost you a considerable purchase price even with repairs needed...and then a potentially sizeable repair bill. If you find a great 'deal'.....you are one of a lucky few. Vintage M-20's I believe are more sought after than they have ever been right now. To answer another of your questions....desirability.....there is no comparison between a Hoboken M-20 and a new MIA M-20....the vintage is HIGHLY desirable while the new MIA (while likely very fine instruments) have no real collector appeal that I am aware of at this point in time.

Edit: saw your post about 'fingerstyle'.....imo the vintage M-20 nut is indeed narrow with narrow string spacing. Depending on what you are accustomed to....I'd think you would find this to be very narrow indeed.
 
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ClydeTower

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Hello Clyde. I don't claim to be an expert, however, I have spent a fair amount of time seeking out, researching, and now playing a vintage M-20. .

Wow! That's an incredible description of what to expect when searching and fixing up a vintage M20. There's no substitute for experience! Thank you for that :)
Actually, I had my eye on this listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123047648421?ul_noapp=true
The seller says its all original, no repairs have been done. Says, neck angle and action are good, however, bridge is slightly lifting. I've asked for close-up pix of the bridge.
I'll admit though... that 1 5/8'' nut could be problematic for its intended use. I gravitate more towards 1 3/4''... Which is why I had my eye on a Martin all hog, but when I heard the M20, I thought the tone was awesome...
 

Kitarkus

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Wow! That's an incredible description of what to expect when searching and fixing up a vintage M20. There's no substitute for experience! Thank you for that :)
Actually, I had my eye on this listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123047648421?ul_noapp=true
The seller says its all original, no repairs have been done. Says, neck angle and action are good, however, bridge is slightly lifting. I've asked for close-up pix of the bridge.
I'll admit though... that 1 5/8'' nut could be problematic for its intended use. I gravitate more towards 1 3/4''... Which is why I had my eye on a Martin all hog, but when I heard the M20, I thought the tone was awesome...

I have been eyeing that auction too. If you gravitate towards 1 3/4 nut....you likely would gravitate away from the vintage M-20 very quickly. It is among the narrowest of the narrow. ymmv
While not 'vintage'....those Martin guitars that you have mentioned are great and widely loved...and likely cheaper in the long run. That said....my recollection is that the Martin 15 series guitars typically have a 1 11/16" nut width despite Martin's recent "reimagination" with 1 3/4" nut widths on all of their standard lineup. (Not sure if Martin classifies the 15 series as their 'standard series'....but I don't think so).

You will have to deal with CITES methinks if you end up with that M-20. Most certainly is brazilian rw fretboard and bridge....and you in Canada
 
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ClydeTower

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I have been eyeing that auction too. If you gravitate towards 1 3/4 nut....you likely would gravitate away from the vintage M-20 very quickly. It is among the narrowest of the narrow. ymmv
While not 'vintage'....those Martin guitars that you have mentioned are great and widely loved...and likely cheaper in the long run. That said....my recollection is that the Martin 15 series guitars typically have a 1 11/16" nut width despite Martin's recent "reimagination" with 1 3/4" nut widths on all of their standard lineup. (Not sure if Martin classifies the 15 series as their 'standard series'....but I don't think so).

You will have to deal with CITES methinks if you end up with that M-20. Most certainly is brazilian rw fretboard and bridge....and you in Canada

Brazalian RW?? Oh ok, that would be an issue, but let me tell you, those border agents could care less about the RW on our guitars... as long as you pay your taxes, its been my experience when bringing in guitars to Canada that they have no clue about CITES regulations... but that is another matter.

Like you and Al said, the 1 5/8'' nut is probably the biggest disadvantage for me, so I would probably be best to look elsewhere to satisfy my all hog GAS :) I might still consider a recent MIA M20 if a 15 series Martin was in the mix.
 

Jim

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Brazalian RW?? Oh ok, that would be an issue, but let me tell you, those border agents could care less about the RW on our guitars... as long as you pay your taxes, its been my experience when bringing in guitars to Canada that they have no clue about CITES regulations... but that is another matter.

Like you and Al said, the 1 5/8'' nut is probably the biggest disadvantage for me, so I would probably be best to look elsewhere to satisfy my all hog GAS :) I might still consider a recent MIA M20 if a 15 series Martin was in the mix.

i have a 1965 M20 and the narrow nut does not bother me because the neck profile is thicker than most Guild dreads.
 

Bonneville88

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Probably not even relevant, but... I recently checked out Westerly Collection M120 - unless I'm
mistaken, it's similar in size and shape to the M20.
Nice sounding guitar, neck felt good, nut width comfortable (spec is 1.7") but the guitar felt awkwardly small to me.
My NH F30 feels small to me, but the M120 body feels damn near ukelele-ish... it'd be a considerable physical adjustment
to get used to playing it, if I even could.

Other thing I noticed that was awkward was that it was headstock-heavy...
noticeably more so than my dreads & jumbos (excluding 12 strings).
I'd been eyeballing F20s more than M20s, recently having seen a couple of sweet burst Fs for sale,
like this one in the CL ad below, but reading the testimony on the narrow nut width in previous posts... probably not,
unless the F20s have a wider nut.

https://kalispell.craigslist.org/msg/d/1967-guild-parlor-guitar/6546787609.html

Xn6DU0M.jpg
 
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mavuser

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the "Hoboken" version is short scale w 1 5/8 nut

the "Westerly" version is long scale w 1 11/16 nut. some of these could possibly have an arched back also, not sure

the "Oxnard" version is short scale w 1 3/4 nut. honestly if you want an M-20 with 1 3/4 nut I would go for one of these. they are out there used/close to new. and to buy one brand new is not such a bad deal either. ive played one or 2 and they sound just like the old ones. the neck is definitely 1 3/4. yes it was made differently but the size and shape are the same (sans the nut width), and so is the tone. remember the M-20 was always the "economy" model so don't overthink efficiency in construction, if you happen to like the guitar. it is not a bolt on neck like it has a plate and screws that are easily removed like a telecaster. I am not an expert but I belive Gibson has been doing the same thing for a while on many of their guitars, as far as setting the neck. the M-20 is definitely the best Guild to come out of Oxnard.

as for the Martin comparison, to be fair the one for that would be the OO-15 Mahogany top, and/or OO- Jeff Tweedy model, both of which are 14 frets, like the Guild. they are a touch wider in the body, but the Guild is likely a little deeper in the body.
 

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Quick and succinct if I can, all above technical details aside, I loved the '59 and '61 M20's I owned for their tone, which was warm rich with a little perceived wimpiness in the low E string tone. I expect that in a small bod. The narrow string spacing bothered me, too.

The first new acoustic I ever bought was an early off the line Oxnard M40. The tone was pretty though not with the depth and richness of the vintage ones, but the tone was more even across the range. I found the M20 equal in tone quality and volume to late 50's Martin 0-17's I owned. Also superior richness. M20 and 017 felt light like balsa wood, the M40 felt heavier built, almost like the Gibson LG2.

Biggest difference was the noticeable ease of fretting on the Guild USA. I traded out for the Hoboken era F20 I now play, and I'm still not sure it was the smart move, especially for my tired old hands. Got my M40 for around a thousand bucks and now see they're up in the $1400 range new. I left a good review on Reverb and/or Ebay.
 
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merlin6666

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In comparing vintage and modern guitar the quality of wood may also be a consideration. In particular the quality of Mahogany has deteriorated substantially over the last 80 years from instruments built with real Swietenia mahagoni decades ago to modern mass produced "hog" instruments that are made of mahogany-like substances. I was just visiting the Hawaiian islands last week, and had opportunity to play many modern and also vintage ukuleles from the 20s and earlier, and I must admit that it was actually the old Martin mahogany models that consistently had the sweetest sound.
 

Kitarkus

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Well that Ebay auction ended at $1125 + $20 shipping. I placed a bid with about 8 minutes remaining and was quickly outbid...then away upward it went. Not a bad price if that guitar is in decent shape. I'm only surprised at the strong auction activity given the very limited seller provided item description and the horrible photos. I would have been a buyer for $800'ish...while hoping that the guitar would be in better than expected condition. Those vintage M-20's see strong market demand right now.
 

ClydeTower

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When I contacted the seller early on, he told me the bridge was slightly lifting and would send me close up pictures... which he never did. I didn't pursue it once I concluded the nut width was too narrow for me. If I ever do decide to pick up an M20, it will likely be an Oxnard with a 1 3/4'' nut.
 

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Hi Clyde,

I'm not sure if this helps, but I have a 1958 or 1959 (still unsure) Guild M-20. I too was concerned about the 1 5/8" nut when I clicked "BUY" but when it arrived I was pleasantly surprised with how good it felt. I believe someone else mentioned it here, but because the neck on the old M-20s is chunkier (front to back) it actually feels like you're playing a more substantial neck. I do NOT like narrow nut guitars (electric or acoustic) but this one works. Your results may vary however, but perhaps that will give you some peace of mind.

As far as the value question goes, the one I bought was very clean and all original with original case. The case was a nice touch but it has all but disintegrated. With shipping/insurance I'm into mine for about $2,300 Canadian ($1,800 US). That is the most I have ever spent on an acoustic guitar without trying it first, but they don't come up all that often (especially where I live) so I took my chance on a guitar I have always lusted after and my expectations were met. I hope this helps.

Good luck with your search.

Sincerely,

Another Canadian :)
 

feet

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chiming in late, but thought i would offer some insights as a guy with a new m20 and a 1 5/8" guitar around, too.

is the skinny nut a big deal? no, for the most part. i bounce between it, my 1 11/16" and 1 3/4" guitars without any real issue. is it noticable? at times. it depends what and where you play, and how chubby your fingers are, i guess. if i'm doing cowboy chords i am sometimes ever so slightly inaccurate for a little bit, but i acclimate quickly. if you play up and down the neck and do a lot of single note stuff, you may not even notice.

all in all, i wouldn't seek one out, i'd prefer not to have more but if i liked the guitar, i would try to make room for it. i certainly don't prefer it to a wider nut, but it isn't a hinderance. pretty sure i wouldn't go any narrower than that, though (like a 60s gibson). that can be problematic. tried an old hummingbird in a store and it sounded incredible, but i couldn't focus on anything but the nut width.

as for the new m20s- i have one. i like it. a lot.

i guess you have to understand that it is a very specific guitar. its tiny, has a wide nut and a warm/dry kinda junky sound. i don't think it is a love it or hate it type guitar, but it is very much its own thing. mine has the baggs undersaddle and with the tone rolled all the way back, and run through a preamp, the sound is better than you could reasonably expect from an undersaddle. not the greatest thing ever, but easily the best piezo i've heard. only gets slightly plastic-y on single notes if you hit them hard enough.

as i've noted before, mine had a finish issue that they finally attempted to resolve but i haven't had the time to ship back yet. we'll see how that goes. but the finsh feels wonderful. the neck shape and feel combine to make one of the better necks i've felt, even if the fret edges weren't exactly finished. the nut is wide but not offensively so. roomy, but no struggle involved. i suppose over time certain spots will buff out into a dull shine from use and frequent contact- that's just how it goes with satin. guitar smells great, too.

i have a hoboken and westerly guild, too. they are both pretty idiosyncratic and this is one is no different- it may be the most unique of all of them. it may also be my favorite of the three; certainly the one that gets the most use, if it isn't the best of the three. its such a beguiling little weirdo. once you begin to understand it and delve into what it can do you really start to love it. and since only it does what it does, it won't step on your other guitar's toes.

and since everyone wants to know: did nick drake play one? probably not. or not how we think, anyway. does it sound exactly the same as pink moon, but in your living room. yes. seriously, it is uncanny. despite whatever guitar use with super old strings, recorded on old mics through consoles and onto tape... despite all those variables, that's what the m20 sounds like. right out of the box. you can do other things with it also, but if you want that sound, its right there.

two last things- it is really small and hilariously light.
 

bobouz

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i have a 1965 M20 and the narrow nut does not bother me because the neck profile is thicker than most Guild dreads.

Yes, the overall profile can make quite a difference.

I have a couple of 1966 Gibsons that have the 1-9/16" nut, but the overall depth & profile of the necks make them highly playable for me (I'm most comfortable with 1-11/16"). But I've also played some Gibsons from that era whose necks were quite shallow, and when combined with the narrow nut, they crossed an invisible line & essentially became unplayable.

The bottom line is, you won't know until it's in your hands, so be sure to have a solid return policy in place!
 
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