Westerly Series models discontinued

AZLiberty

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Not even close.

CITES didn't list East Indian Rosewood. They listed ALL Dalbergia as being controlled. ALL. From farm grown EIR to the Dalbergia Sissoo I have planted in my front yard as a shade tree. (most popular shade tree in Phoenix). Plus three species of Bubinga.

Not even the CITES signatories think that EIR is in any way endangered. All they have done is sew chaos in any industry that uses rosewood and/or bubinga.
 

adorshki

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Not even close.
???? Not sure what you're responding to but appreciate the tone of civilized debate. (Seriously, no snark intended. It inspires me to try to do the same. )
CITES didn't list East Indian Rosewood. They listed ALL Dalbergia as being controlled.
Right, I guess you thought I meant EIR was the only one to get added to the list.
It just happened to be the most popular one and the subject of relevance to the discussion.
My point exactly: ALL the remaining unlisted species of Dalbergia were listed in 2016 with effective date of 1/2/2017 for exactly the reason I cited in post 20:
"The express purpose was to get them listed en masse now, just like Tommym mentions in post #14, instead of piece-meal adding 'em as the consumption pressures inevitably shift to "un-listed" species as has historically been seen with the other varieties."
Many species of Dalbergia were lsied prior to he 2016 mass listing
From farm grown EIR to the Dalbergia Sissoo I have planted in my front yard as a shade tree. (most popular shade tree in Phoenix). Plus three species of Bubinga.
It sounds like you take exception to listing farmed EIR but doesn't this go right back to your original issue about customs agents being unable to distinguish between EIR and other rosewoods?
By the same token, how are they supposed to be to tell the difference between farmed or wild-harvested rosewood, which has been illegal to export from India ever since 1927?, preceding the CITES convention by almost 50 years?
Again, I submit: "Documentation".

Not even the CITES signatories think that EIR is in any way endangered.
Again, my point exactly.
They're trying to get past trying to catch a train that's left the station, and trying to prevent it from leaving at all.
History has shown that in the case of forest products, once one species gets listed other "substitute" species become the focus of exploitation.
All they have done is sew chaos in any industry that uses rosewood and/or bubinga.
Well, I respectfully disagree.
Prior to the 2016 additions, many species of Dalbergia were already listed.
Hyperbole ("all they have done is sew chaos") won't convince me but quotes from industry sources might.
I do sincerely applaud your apparent understanding of the listings and the species covered.
A lot of folks don't seem willing to investigate what's listed and when, but I posted a link to the US F&WS letter that linked to the formal CITES listings about a year ago, but for those who may be interested I'll re-post it here:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-Regs-for-US-citizens-Official-FWS-newsletter
And the current listing as of 1/2/2017, detailing when various species were first listed.
EIR would be under the "Dalbergia spp" after "populations of Madagascar":
https://www.fws.gov/international/plants/current-cites-listings-of-tree-species.html
There also seems to be a common misperception that there's only one level of "control".
Actually there are differing levels of control.
"Appendix 1" is complete prohibition of international trade.
"Appendix 2" simply requires documentation.
And anybody involved in the EIR trade was well aware of the pending effective date of the listings for 6 months prior, and had plenty of time to make adjustments, initiate documentation processes, and acquire documentation for existing stockpiles if necessary, which is why I don't buy the "sew chaos" reference.
Another factor mitigating against that is that when CITES was originally instituted it specifically looked at GATT in order to avoid disrupting existing international trade.
And yes I concede that corruption degrades the actual processes so the model ideal may not be presently achieved but I respectfully submit it's still better than uncontrolled rape of resources.
And in this case I don't consider "rape" to be hyperbole:

causes-of-deforestation-in-Madagascar.jpg

Why Madagascan species were the subject of focus in 2013.
 

Rayk

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Ummm .... so what guitar is discontinued again ?
 

Rayk

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I'm your straight man.
:glee:

Yaaaaay back on topic !! So I’ll add some more soy filler . 😁 so I kind of mentioned I got one these 150ce coming and it should here today .

Something happened in my head after reading they were being discontinued. Next thing I know I’m on the hunt like I’m missing out ! Now I look back and wonder what the heck is wrong with me !?

Always wanted the F50R but missed my opportunity and have not seen any for sale that I’m interested in so I guess I started Jones’n For the next best option.

Review wise I see some on the Gad 150R but not much on the 150CE very few customer reviews on sites from purchases , there are a few vids like 2 or 3 lol

So I’m not sure what to expect ....... I’ll start a thread when I know more .
 

Rayk

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No need to start a thread and sorry for derailing this one . Got the guitar today and it’s going back , Yes ! I am the return King ! Yeah ! 😐
 

Rayk

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Ok , I’ll go there but I hate wasting space and I’ll copy my reply from AGF so I don’t have to type it all again lol
 

fronobulax

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Ok , I’ll go there but I hate wasting space and I’ll copy my reply from AGF so I don’t have to type it all again lol

Speaking as a Moderator and not as the Administrator of LTGs servers, there is no harm in starting a new thread and I actually prefer it when a) the old thread has been dormant for a week or more and/or b) the intended, non-veered topic is different.

In this specific case I see this topic as being about discontinued Westerly Collection models. I see that as being different from a Westerly Collection instrument that was purchased and returned by our favorite Serial Returner so I applaud a new thread.

And is it only me but is there something unfortunate because "Westerly Collection" could also be referred to as "WC"?
 

AZLiberty

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Hyperbole ("all they have done is sew chaos") won't convince me but quotes from industry sources might.

http://acousticguitar.com/guitar-ma...d-restrictions-and-what-it-means-for-players/

http://www.discoverguitar.com/bob-taylor-cites/

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-bi...y-regulations-on-rosewood-20180412-story.html

And that's just the big builders in the US. Small builders like Ed Bond (Halcyon/Tinker) are spending hours on dealing with exporting a single instrument to the US. Which is why when I order my next custom it will be Walnut/Cedar and I will specify no rosewood anywhere (trim, binding, headstock overlay)

All the intermediary builders/importer in the $300-$600 range are abandoning EIR as fast as they can convert over to walnut, blackwood, acacia etc because adding $100 to the price of a $300 guitar is actually a really big deal.
 

adorshki

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http://acousticguitar.com/guitar-ma...d-restrictions-and-what-it-means-for-players/

http://www.discoverguitar.com/bob-taylor-cites/

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-bi...y-regulations-on-rosewood-20180412-story.html

And that's just the big builders in the US. Small builders like Ed Bond (Halcyon/Tinker) are spending hours on dealing with exporting a single instrument to the US. Which is why when I order my next custom it will be Walnut/Cedar and I will specify no rosewood anywhere (trim, binding, headstock overlay)

All the intermediary builders/importer in the $300-$600 range are abandoning EIR as fast as they can convert over to walnut, blackwood, acacia etc because adding $100 to the price of a $300 guitar is actually a really big deal.

YOU sir, have earned my sincere respect.
That first one from Acoustic Guitar did seem to merely confirm everything I've said so far (but doesn't contradict your position), while the last 2 seem to confirm your point that makers didn't really have enough time to adjust to the impending changes.
And I notice it said rosewood was actually the world's most illegally trafficked wild product, even I hadn't seen that mentioned before.
It does tend to validate the mass listing, wouldn't you agree?
And while the $200.00 for bulk permits seemed entirely reasonable to me, it's true I wasn't thinking of small makers where the costs aren't so easily amortized.
So while I still think "chaos" might be a bit strong, it's certainly within the range of appropriate usage now that more info's presented.
Thanks.
 
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cutrofiano

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So glad I got my hands on of these F-150RCE (GAD) before the Chinese decided to better make a chair leg out of it :distracted:

Moritz
 

cutrofiano

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The F-150CE in Indian Rosewood is still available and there is no plan visible to discontinue it.

I know it is, Ralf - was just trying to be funny ;-)

(But I do like the "GAD" version more than it's "Westerly" successor, because of its block inlays, bindings on the fretboard and slimer neck).

Moritz
 

Rayk

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I know it is, Ralf - was just trying to be funny ;-)

(But I do like the "GAD" version more than it's "Westerly" successor, because of its block inlays, bindings on the fretboard and slimer neck).

Moritz

What about tonal differences ?
 
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