Gibson files for Chapter 11......

ClydeTower

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OK you got sucked in by a humor veer.
Awww, don't go thinkin' we're kickin' Gibson because we're blindly loyal to Guild.
:glee:

I get that. Still, I've noticed some G bashing pop up in a few posts under the guise of humor or what feels like sweet revenge. Since Guild and Gibson share some DNA (George, Ren...), on an unconscious level, it often feels like Guild is somehow the illegitimate son and/or Gibson is the Prodigal son. Or like two siblings competing for their parents love... All I can say is, in my case, there's plenty of love to go around :love-struck:

Ok, so that was Freudian psychoanalysis for the day...
 

adorshki

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Since Guild and Gibson share some DNA (George, Ren...), on an unconscious level, it often feels like Guild is somehow the illegitimate son and/or Gibson is the Prodigal son. Or like two siblings competing for their parents love... All I can say is, in my case, there's plenty of love to go around :love-struck:

Ok, so that was Freudian psychoanalysis for the day...
oh no, I'm LOVIN' IT.
Kinda like the Cain and Abel of the guitar biz.


we had one BUNKER guitar ... Now THOSE were downright ugly - but fun and well built - we did like them ugly ducklings.
surely you must be referring to this masterpiece of excess:
bunker_galaxy_d1001_fr_700px.jpg
 
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bobouz

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Must say, that Bunker guitar is something special - Almost fell off my chair!

And Al, as far as your dream F-40 goes, it's already been made (and is still made in special runs), by Gibson! The J-185 (and it's cutaway EC models) can tick off most all of the boxes - excluding of course the one that says Guild on the headstock!

I've had a long love affair going on with the F-40 that goes back to the one I bought new in the late '70s, and my current '74 is a sweetheart. But as much as I love the profile of the neck, I'd consider it absolutely perfect if it had a 24.75" scale. My 2012 J-185 fills that slot by having the short-scale, and otherwise being almost identical in body dimensions to the F-40.

If you ever get a chance to play one, it would serve as an interesting reference point.
 

adorshki

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Must say, that Bunker guitar is something special - Almost fell off my chair!

And Al, as far as your dream F-40 goes, it's already been made (and is still made in special runs), by Gibson! The J-185 (and it's cutaway EC models) can tick off most all of the boxes - excluding of course the one that says Guild on the headstock!

I've had a long love affair going on with the F-40 that goes back to the one I bought new in the late '70s, and my current '74 is a sweetheart. But as much as I love the profile of the neck, I'd consider it absolutely perfect if it had a 24.75" scale. My 2012 J-185 fills that slot by having the short-scale, and otherwise being almost identical in body dimensions to the F-40.

If you ever get a chance to play one, it would serve as an interesting reference point.

It is true I'm a die-hard Guild loyalist, but comes time when a man starts to think there's something to be said for the probability of finding the afore-mentioned competitive brand's construction on the wall in a guitar store and thus easily taken for the ergonomic test drive if nothing else!!!!!
Be aware as well that in the past it's been my policy not to even bother playing guitars I have no intention of purchasing, but in this case, the intent would be contingent upon satisfying the ergonomic imperative.
tu Capisci?
 
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ClydeTower

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It is true I'm a die-hard Guild loyalist, but comes time when a man starts to think there's something to be said for the probability of finding the afore-mentioned competitive brand's construction on the wall in a guitar store and thus easily taken for the ergonomic test drive if nothing else!!!!!
RememberBe aware as well that in the past it's been my policy not to even bother playing guitars I have no intention of purchasing, but in this case, the intent would be contingent upon satisfying the ergonomic imperative.
tu Capisci?

Al, I officially challenge you to try a Gibson J-185, and come back to us with a full write up.

Let the chips fall where they may...
 

adorshki

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Al, I officially challenge you to try a Gibson J-185, and come back to us with a full write up.

Let the chips fall where they may...
Rest assured I'd approach it with an open mind, I really don't have anything against Gibson.
My sly reference was to the fact that at least we can find Gibsons on the shelf, but it's almost impossible with Guild and has been ever since close of Tacoma.
See? I'm not afraid to dig a little at my favorite brand!
:friendly_wink:
(PS my F40 love and pipe dream is real enough and is also the source of another gripe I have with Cordoba, detailed in depth here):
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195241-F40-Lovers-Unite!!&highlight=unite
 

tommym

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I think the KING of ugly / crazy has to go to Guild's Merle Travis model. It's like Gumby and Pokey on acid. I don't think Gibson has anything that can approach that.

Tommy
 

ClydeTower

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Rest assured I'd approach it with an open mind, I really don't have anything against Gibson.
My sly reference was to the fact that at least we can find Gibsons on the shelf, but it's almost impossible with Guild and has been ever since close of Tacoma.
See? I'm not afraid to dig a little at my favorite brand!
:friendly_wink:
(PS my F40 love and pipe dream is real enough and is also the source of another gripe I have with Cordoba, detailed in depth here):
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?195241-F40-Lovers-Unite!!&highlight=unite

For many people here (excluding myself), Cordoba guitars are not considered true Guilds. Its just some guitar with a Guild logo on it. Its considered that Guild died in Hew Hartford...

So you have Gibson the prodigal son, Guild the illegitimate son, and Cordoba the illegitimate son's bastard offspring.

So when you "dig" at your favorite brand, you're actually digging at the bastard offspring...
 

adorshki

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For many people here (excluding myself), Cordoba guitars are not considered true Guilds. Its just some guitar with a Guild logo on it. Its considered that Guild died in Hew Hartford...

So you have Gibson the prodigal son, Guild the illegitimate son, and Cordoba the illegitimate son's bastard offspring.

So when you "dig" at your favorite brand, you're actually digging at the bastard offspring...

Oh I had smaller gripes with New Hartford, like open tuners and coated strings.
And since the brand has been bought/sold/relocated so many times I have no particular prejudices against any one location, although it's true when I joined here I was attracted by the late Westerly loyalists/purists based on my D25 ownership experience.
As for whether or not Cordoba is making "true" Guilds, lemme offer up this:
It's been proposed (by me, and with at least a coupla other members providing an avalanche of agreement) that Guild's single most iconic piece of machinery was (is) the legendary steam press that produced arched backs (and tops, too, I'm sure) and which had traveled with the brand to every location since Westerly (I'm not clear if it's actually even the same one that was used in Hoboken).
And yes, it's in Oxnard.
There's even conjecture that it might have been the piece of equipment that was delaying Oxnard's production start, because the real reason for the delays had nothing to do with getting certified to spray NCL but was getting a piece of equipment cleared by code inspectors that apparently drew so much power it could have taken down the local grid if turned on at the wrong time, which then quite literally could have cascaded into a southern Cal regional blackout, I mean, literally, the entire southern half of the state.
Hard to conceive of something drawing that much juice in a guitar-making plant except, maybe, a steam press.
:glee:

"Where the archback press is, there is the heart of Guild."
As far as I'm concerned Oxnard builds true Guilds.
Now get out there and find those 16" F40 dies!!!!!!
:victorious:
 
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Grassdog

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I'm a firm believer that there are just certain businesses that need to be closely held enterprises (family or employee owned) to stay true to their vision throughout ups and downs of the business cycle and not make stupid decisions that sacrifice quality. We've seen it over and over again in the guitar business. Those of us who love the Guild brand and it's history have felt it firsthand with multiple owners and factories in recent history. When the company is beholden to shareholders or bondholders or private equity groups or whatever form of investor group, everything is about "what have you done for me in the latest quarter" and if you're not hitting your projections then "what are you doing to turn things around". Maybe a few of those investors have a passion for guitars and music like we do, but statistically it's minimal. To them it's just a business. I don't think there's any question that being a closely held enterprises has benefited C. F. Martin & Co. It's not that they haven't evolved or ventured into new production methods or different models to compete at a different price point. It's still a business but one with a longer term focus there. According to a tour guide at the Nazareth factory, 85% of their workforce don't even play guitar or an instrument. They seem to know how to make them, however.

As for Gibson, the brand will probably survive in some fashion but it's hard to say how all of this is going to shake out. I hope the Bozeman factory and workforce survives intact. I've owned three acoustics that came out of that factory and they were outstanding instruments. I still have my Southern Jumbo (which is a J-45 with the parallelogram inlays) which I swear I'll never part with.
 

tommym

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......Its just some guitar with a Guild logo on it.....

That thought has crossed my mind more than once, and still does every now and then. It's kind of tough trying to be a loyal Guild Guitar fanboy when they keep changing ownership, plant locations, guitar naming nomenclature, etc.. And what's up with all the hush hush about the neck joints with some of the new Guilds. If it wasn't for my NH F-30 and F-30R Standards with wider nut and string spacing, I would definitely be in the Martin Guitar camp right now. Hopefully with Gibson they will retain their current USA plants and employees.

Tommy

Tommy
 

davismanLV

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Everyone try to stay calm. All the big guys make some mighty fine guitars. And they've all made some mighty UN-fine guitars too. It's all okay. Let's just all realize that we buy what we want..... and what we don't want, we sell. There are TWO new guitars coming to the house at the beginning of next week. One is mine (starts with a B) and one is not mine (starts with an M) and guess what? If they sound bad?? They going BACK!! That's all there is to it. I favor amazing sound and playability over brand names and cachet..... dig?? :victorious:
 

Nuuska

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oh no, I'm LOVIN' IT.
Kinda like the Cain and Abel of the guitar biz.



surely you must be referring to this masterpiece of excess:
bunker_galaxy_d1001_fr_700px.jpg


No - but something like THIS


eb6b38de04d179a8df5d3fe50e9c0a41.jpg
 

chazmo

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For many people here (excluding myself), Cordoba guitars are not considered true Guilds. Its just some guitar with a Guild logo on it. Its considered that Guild died in Hew Hartford...

So you have Gibson the prodigal son, Guild the illegitimate son, and Cordoba the illegitimate son's bastard offspring.

So when you "dig" at your favorite brand, you're actually digging at the bastard offspring...
Clyde, I actually don't think it's that many of us. Not New Hartford, anyway. I think there is a much larger contingent here that felt Guild died when Westerly was shuttered.

That kind of sentiment is totally legitimate, and I encourage folks to vent their frustrations here. It's kind of why we're here, really. At least I see it that way. A support group, if you will, for folks who love Guilds. We are united here by our great love of the Guild products, and the fan community we have built. And, the tricky part... to the people who have designed and built them over the years.

I think it's a much easier proposition to be a fan of a brand that is not such an underdog. But definitely not as much fun. I, for one, hope Cordoba brings more great innovation and presence to the brand.
 

Quantum Strummer

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Really, none of the existing big historic American guitar companies are what they once were except for Martin and Rickenbacker. And even Ric became a different outfit in the 1950s after F.C. Hall bought it from Adolph Rickenbacker. (And it's also not that big.) Martin has the best claim to continuity in that it's still owned and run by the Martin family. Both Fender and Gibson have been bought & sold multiple times…same with Guild. I'd argue that none of these three are the original companies. They're brand names and headstock logos. So is Gretsch despite now being owned by Fred W. Gretsch.

I'll happily own & play guitars branded with any of these names. But I also have no built-in allegiance to any of 'em.

-Dave-
 

steve488

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I am thinking there are maybe 4 basic categories of guitar owners.
Category 1 - hard core name only with total (or near anyway) disregard for the sound qualities.
Category 2 - hard core tone quality is the only factor, regardless of who made it or what it looks like
Category 3 - soft core tone quality rules with a preference for one builder but appreciates the variety of other brands not for the name but for the sound
Category 4 - gimme a damn guitar thingy so I can have fun making noise

Variety is good not only for competition but also because not everyone like the same things. I hope Gibson recovers at least for the guitar family. I have played many but only a couple would be called dogs. Most were OK but not great enough to say "buy me" but that is just me. I think I end up as a category 3 - Many sound good, but the Guilds have sounded better. I want the sound and the opportunity to listen to many potential choices.
 

Neal

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After wading through all 96 posts, I feel compelled to weigh in.

I love Guilds, still own six, and appreciate them every time I pick one up.

But I have a '49 J-50 that is just on another planet. It leaves all other guitar I have ever owned in the dust. Period.

So I lament the fact that Gibson's brand has been tarnished by mismanagement. Just as I lament what Fender did to Guild in closing New Hartford.

When it becomes all about money, and short-sighted business planning, the brand always suffers.

If you are an insurance company or a bank, and you make a lot of bad business decisions, you can simply rebrand. If you are a 110-year-old guitar company, it's not so easy. So you have to protect what made the brand "the brand". I think Gibson lost sight of that.
 
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walrus

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Really, none of the existing big historic American guitar companies are what they once were except for Martin and Rickenbacker. And even Ric became a different outfit in the 1950s after F.C. Hall bought it from Adolph Rickenbacker.

Perhaps not old enough to be "historic", but don't forget PRS. I guess we'll see what happens as time goes by.

walrus
 

Quantum Strummer

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Perhaps not old enough to be "historic", but don't forget PRS. I guess we'll see what happens as time goes by.

I guess we could make a New Generation category: PRS, Collings, Taylor (and any I may be blanking on). Collings is already in post-founder territory (RIP, Bill) so we'll see how much forward momentum it still has.

Seems to me there's a sweet spot with brand-centric companies between when they establish their brand as a distinct thing and when it becomes something they're burdened by.

-Dave-
 
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