Danger ! Warning !

F312

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So I know I had Off on and put my sleeve on and after an hour of playing I noticed my t shirt was stuck to the back of my guitar (F47R) OH NO. I immediately put Viruoso cleaner, followed by polish and it didn't help a bit, you can even see the print of the fabric in the finish... er, the finish is gone, a dry feeling, a big messy spot. I would have been happier eaten up. Now give me the MoJo line, COL.

Ralph
 

adorshki

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Oh man Ralph so sorry.
I'd like to think you were joking but I'm pretty sure you isn't.
Thanks at least for posting the warning.
And I don't remember if you were in the last thread where I cautioned against doing any immediate "cleaning" of damaged NCL, because of what you describe.
Best to let it harden back up through outgassing for however long it takes, I think.
At least, that's what worked on my D25.
Fortunately (hopefully), it should be "repairable" by somebody familiar with the idiosyncrasies of NCL.
 

F312

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Oh man Ralph so sorry.
I'd like to think you were joking but I'm pretty sure you isn't.
Thanks at least for posting the warning.
And I don't remember if you were in the last thread where I cautioned against doing any immediate "cleaning" of damaged NCL, because of what you describe.
Best to let it harden back up through outgassing for however long it takes, I think.
At least, that's what worked on my D25.
Fortunately (hopefully), it should be "repairable" by somebody familiar with the idiosyncrasies of NCL.

I just couldn't leave it there to find out what was going to take place. It is a toxic combination for sure. I put the Off on three or four hours prior, so it was dry but maybe a little sweat took place as well. I hope everyone who reads this remembers this lesson.


Ralph
 

dreadnut

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I haven't used bug dope for decades for this very reason. Sorry for your experience, maybe it can be buffed out and oversprayed after it stabilizes. Good luck.
 

txbumper57

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I don't know if it would make a difference or not but I use "Skin So Soft" and it works great for Mosquitoes without all the harmful chemicals in "OFF". I don't know how well it will react with Nitro but it is safe enough to use on my dogs and small children. I am so sorry that this happened to your guitar but like others have stated, Hopefully after it sets back up for awhile someone with experience in refinishing Nitro can make it look like it was never there.

TX
 

Rayk

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So I know I had Off on and put my sleeve on and after an hour of playing I noticed my t shirt was stuck to the back of my guitar (F47R) OH NO. I immediately put Viruoso cleaner, followed by polish and it didn't help a bit, you can even see the print of the fabric in the finish... er, the finish is gone, a dry feeling, a big messy spot. I would have been happier eaten up. Now give me the MoJo line, COL.

Ralph

You say all the finish is gone ? If not you could possibly sand out the shirt pattern . I had one with my jeans imprinted in the NCL if it’s fresh NCL then ya gotta wait but if it’s cured you grab a pack of sanding pads from amazon or wereever that has all different finish grits 1500 - 3000 or what not can’t remember exactly but some fine sanding and a little buff it’ll come out if it’s just on the surface.
 

CosmicArkie

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As Ray said, judicious "sanding" with _very_ fine material (Stew-Mac has some nice stuff - https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_a...d_Polishing/3M_Flexible_Polishing_Papers.html ) would be the way I'd go. Then, if it is only on the back, use some fine line tape along the edge of the binding and bag the rest of the guitar. Then a very careful application of this stuff - https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_a...plies/Finishes_and_Solvents/Blush_Eraser.html might save your bacon. Blush Eraser is MAGIC. But be advised it works v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y. So don't rush it, let it do it's thing.
YMMV
 
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F312

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Thank you guys for all your help. I called and left a message to my luthier to see if he does finish repairs. I did clean it with naphtha, it went away but soon as it dried it reappeared, which didn't surprise me..

Ralph
 

adorshki

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You say all the finish is gone ? If not you could possibly sand out the shirt pattern . I had one with my jeans imprinted in the NCL if it’s fresh NCL then ya gotta wait but if it’s cured you grab a pack of sanding pads from amazon or wereever that has all different finish grits 1500 - 3000 or what not can’t remember exactly but some fine sanding and a little buff it’ll come out if it’s just on the surface.

When I said "let it dry out for however long it takes"< I probably should have pointed out that I let my D25 "rest" in the case for over 3 months, I'm thinking it was even closer to 6, this was on a guitar that was already 6 or 7 years old when it got the sweat damage.
The finish was "soft" from sweat, wouldn't buff up with polish and was very slightly tacky which was my first warning that something was very wrong.
So wouldn't recommend doing any sanding if there IS any finish left, because it's not the same as when sanding between layers of finish when first finishing the instrument.
Soft finish just ain't gonna buff up, that's all there is to it.
And a final finish of many coats is thicker and will take some time to dry out.
So when Ralph said the finish was gone I assumed he meant literally that, from applying the cleaner to the softened finish aggressively.
if there is any finish left (which also seems to be verified by the fact that you say there's still an imprint in it), I'll betcha 1000 posts his luthier's gonna say the same thing: "It has to dry out again before I can do any repairs in that kind of situation".
But I could be wrong.
What I can say is that when I finally tried polishing the D25 again, after the tackiness was gone, it all buffs up nicely now, but the blem's still faintly visible as a less-glossy area on the top when viewed at the right angle.
 

F312

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As you go over it with your finger, it's smooth, until you reach the affected area then it feels and sounds like a satin finish. The area is about 4" round.

Ralph
 

mike1100

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Ralph - My heart goes out to you. Good luck with the repair. Try not to beat yourself up.

(General ramblings from a non-lutheir / average joe)......I am often amazed when I see a vintage guitar with an original NCL finish that is in great shape. Most of the NCL finish "Best Practices" I learned from those that learned it the hard way. Perhaps that would make for a great “sticky” thread.

I'm at the crossroads regarding how I feel about NCL as a finish material. Some folks advocate for a NCL finish because of tradition, the way it wears, or a belief that it provides a superior sound over other finishes. My favorite guitar does have a NCL finish. However, if it would sound just as good with a more durable finish, I'd prefer that. I question many of the “traditionalist” beliefs, such as the benefits of hide glue, without an objective study. Many would label me a heretic for those words. Without solid information, I try to evaluate individual guitars by their sound. That is often easier said than done. I do believe nitrocellulose lacquer can maintain its beauty, but it is more fragile and prone to checking, hazing, melting, and wearing.

More could be done to objectively learn what materials do and don’t provide a superior sound, but the market is small. I also believe the market is also dominated by nostalgia and traditionalists, which has its pros and cons. Sheesh, I'm now probably going to be branded as both a heretic and radical. (end general ramblings)
 

adorshki

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I question many of the “traditionalist” beliefs, such as the benefits of hide glue, without an objective study.

Actually, a quick aside about hide glue:
It's a known fact that it's got the best "creep resistance" of any of the traditional woodworking glues that require the capacity to be "released".
In other words, it doesn't stretch under tension like Titebond does, because it dries to a crystalline structure.
Only epoxy is stronger and but you can't break it loose with steam (or anything) to do proper repairs.
As for NCL, although I'm a fan, yes there are pros and cons.
Although I do believe it actually helps a guitar's tone improve with age, yes it's kind of fragile.
For me that's balanced by its ease of repair compared to "poly".
Although I've seen credible reports from members here that there've been significant advancements on that front.
I still tip the scale in balance of NCL for the improves with age factor.
Also my D25 is now a gorgeous honey-amber color, you'd think it was an actual "Amber" finish from the factory, but it's just a plain ol' "NT".
:friendly_wink:
 

adorshki

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As you go over it with your finger, it's smooth, until you reach the affected area then it feels and sounds like a satin finish. The area is about 4" round.

Ralph

I'm betting it'll be an "easy" spray and buff then, if it's not "tacky". Let us know what your luthier says, eh?
 

F312

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I'm still waiting for a call back and I should call another luthier I know to see what he would suggest, then compare thoughts from each. I'm wondering; would the "Off" react to poly?

Ralph
 

mike1100

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Al - Thanks for sharing that (regarding hide glue). I appreciate those that can help share information with something backing it up.

I'm just an avg-joe, but I'm one of the most skeptical average joes you'll encounter. :wink:
 

davismanLV

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Ralph, so sorry to hear your tale of woe!! Those are super nice guitars, but take heart. It can be repaired. Without knowing what chemicals are in OFF it's difficult to know what the offending chemical or combination of chemicals caused the problem. The only poly guitar I have is my Taylor GC8 and short of donating it for experimentation........ well, you know. I do know I worry less about that guitar when I'm sweating or have short sleeves on. I just damp wipe and buff and it's fine.

As far as what mike1100 says, I tend to look at things the same way. NCL is an okay finish. Very repairable. Not that durable. Taylor has gotten their poly finishes ALMOST within the range of NCL these days. People are always gonna argue about the sound and the out-gassing and all that stuff until the world no longer exists. Maybe someday soon we'll get a better finish to use. When I did wood finishes one of the most durable ones was the Polyacrylic water based ones. Hard as a rock and difficult to damage. Maybe too hard even, if it stifles vibration.

Anyway, Ralph, sorry again but it can be repaired. Thanks for putting it out there as a warning! I'm so glad we have so few bugs in Las Vegas!!
 

mike1100

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Also my D25 is now a gorgeous honey-amber color, you'd think it was an actual "Amber" finish from the factory, but it's just a plain ol' "NT".
:friendly_wink:

Al - Agreed. It's a thing of beauty when an NCL finish "ages gracefully".

Ralph - I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. If you don't mind, could you take some before / after photos if you take it in to a luthier? Again, best of luck. My poly finish guitars are strats / teles and I hardly take any care regarding preserving their finish. I just wipe them down when they start looking grungy, or when I'm changing the strings. Poly will chip though if whacked.

DEET is pretty nasty stuff. "Off" might even react with the more durable poly finish.

"Only apply DEET formulations to exposed skin; do not apply to areas underneath clothing. DEET will damage plastic materials, so do not apply DEET formulations on or near plastics, acetate, rayon, Spandex, synthetic fabrics (other than nylon), furniture finishes, leather, watch crystals, and painted or varnished surfaces. Plastic glass frames and goggles should be protected from DEET applications. Car finishes and interiors also may be damaged by DEET. It will not damage nylon, cotton, or wool fabrics."
 
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F312

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First Luthier said to use Novus Polish comes in 3 step bottles 1, 2 and 3, he said it has a little grit to it. I checked it out and has 1% silicone, so low, it doesn't need to be listed on the bottle, but suppose to be available without silicone, but can't find it. Second Luthier said leave it out on a stand for a few weeks and it may (forgot the term he used) and it will help the process to remove. Al, your on to something again, as usual.

Learn From The Mistakes Of Others, You Will Not Live Long Enough To Make Them All Yourself!

Ralph
 

adorshki

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I'm still waiting for a call back and I should call another luthier I know to see what he would suggest, then compare thoughts from each. I'm wondering; would the "Off" react to poly?

Ralph

No.
Poly is a fixed molecular chain when cured, can only be broken down by something like strong acids or a poly-specific solvent.
NCL is constantly in a state of relative instability, the solvent molecules are continuously breaking way from the cellulose molecules ("out-gassing") making what's left ever thinner and more brittle.
It's that solvent-to-solids bond that other solvents (or even just fresh liquid NCL) can insert themselves into, basically returning it to a "just sprayed" semi-solid state.
So it needs to "cure" all over again, except now it's a lot thicker so takes a lot longer.
 
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