67 Starfire Project

PeteyBass

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Great to be back with a project. I hope all of you are well.

I snagged the 67 Starfire on eBay last night.

I'm looking for a few parts. First, anyone have a line on the copper nails for pot markers?

A set of vintage knobs.

And... I'm looking to trade my set of Hammon long-scale spacing Darstars for a set of short-scale spacing Darkstars? Or, I will most likey just get a set of Curtis Novacks and contuine to hoard my DS's.

Also, I'm planning on wireing in a phase switch for the dreded suck switch hole.

I'll wait till I see the guitar to decide on the finish, but I'm considering removing front crime and possibly going with a stock cherry color with a light nitro finish, or?

I'm in good shape with a vintage bridge and of course, I have plenty of saddles.

Thoughts... ideas ?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Origi...oK9rL1Y6zTmf4ToIw%2FM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
 

dklsplace

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Great find! It sure seems that people are quick to jump directly to "sanding" to remove finish from instruments, not realizing how quickly they're sanding through a top veneer. :crying:
 

fronobulax

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I can't remember squat but BA-200 is awfully early for a SF II. I know there was one SF II that dated quite early owned by someone whose name I will remember after I hit post. It had the "little" non-Bisonic pickups.

If I didn't have the serial I would say this left the factory as a SF II in the latter part of '67, if only because the "suck switch" didn't appear until then. The lack of symmetry on the pickup holes makes me willing to believe it was modified from a SF I but that means the bridge hole is the original.

Now that I have read http://www.gretsch-talk.com/media/al...storation.660/ it left the factory as a '66 sweet spot SF I which makes sense. It was upgraded to a SF II configuration so the '67 plus features makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that the Gretsch link shows the bass with a reasonable finish but with "in progress" pictures that match the ebay listing pretty well. What happened to the finish in the intervening years?

Curtis Novak offers a coil tap on the BSDS which lets you toggle between Vintage and Darkstar specs. I have it on a custom one PU solid body and really like it.

Seems to me someone reported they found copper nails (brads) at their hardware store and they worked for pot markers.

Newark Street knobs may be an acceptable non-vintage substitute. I don't recall anyone saying they didn't fit.
 

mellowgerman

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fun project! if you get in touch with Curtis, I'm sure he'd be happy to make you some pickups with a separate shield wire so you can do phase and/or series/parallel (which I personally would think might be more useful)... or why not do a rotary switch that does it all?! coil tap included!
 

mavuser

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it looks like u have one master vol knob and one vol knob. i may have some, or possibly all 3, of the others (original/vintage). ill check.

not sure if the Newark Street knobs are a match in all instances. for that matter the vintage ones may not match newer posts? i would think u would be ok, but not sure.

that is an old one!!
 

Happy Face

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This will be fun to watch. Will the ugly duckling become a beautiful swan?
 

PeteyBass

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Frono, now that you mention it, I bet you're right. This has to be one of the Hagstrom two pickup set ups with the small pickup near the bridge. There's just no way the holes are not factory and of course, the lower routing has been changed. It was enlightening finding the old post about bass from 2010. Mellow the sugjestion about about the rotary switch with a tap sound is excellent. My Dark Star Percision has one and I use it in a different position with almost every gig.

I would have have taken the finish in any condition if it was original but hey, then it wouldn't have been a deal.

The in-between the DS and orginal sounds very appealing. I'm going to stick it out for original knobs and of course, I could trade a spare set of saddles for them, mabey even brass. I've waited a long time for this bass and it will be played a ton.

Thanks guys, all excellents points of view!
 

mavuser

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Just to be clear this appears to have been completed by Guild in 1966 with one Hagstrom single coil in the bridge position (this is the smaller chrome single coil Hagstrom pickup that sounds just like a Bisonic, I call it the "pre sonic").

Not the mini-humbucker, and Not the Micky Mouse.

The Guild factory may have added the Hagstrom Bisonic at the neck later, with the extra hardware.
 

fronobulax

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I'm confused and may have confused others by starting a post, learning more information and adding, not editing.

So, to resolve/correct that...

According to http://www.gretsch-talk.com/media/albums/1966-guild-starfire-bass-restoration.660/ BA-200 was a '66 Starfire I.

This is supposed to be a picture of factory condition.

full


Missing the treble side finger/thumb rest but looks as expected to me.

The Gretsch post talks about mods that made it a "dual pickup bass with two DeArmond bass pickups". It doesn't say where the mods were made. The post says the bass is slated to receive Darkstars.

This pic below is given as the finished project before Darkstars. The picture raises some interesting questions, including whether the picture is actually of BA-200 in any condition. The pickups look to be post 1970 Guild Humbuckers, not any DeArmond I can recall seeing. The mini-toggle is the post 1970 deep hard switch and not the '60's pushbutton used for the "suck switch". The bridge is the mid '67 and later which raises the question - why was the straight bridge replaced? There is wear at the bass/neck corner of the bridge pickup that is consistent with a thumbnail being there. Was BA-200 in that condition long enough to get that kind of finish wear? If you just gave me that picture I would say it was a stock 70's Starfire II in factory condition.

full


Perhaps there was a factory conversion to a Starfire II in the '70's?

This is an "in progress shot" from the Gretsch post.

full


And this is a shot from the eBay listing.

s-l1000.jpg


The similarities (dark/light pattern at the bottom, for example) suggest to me that the Grestch poster never actually completed the project and that the suggestion that the '70's configuration bass is BA-200 is not correct. Just like some people use photos of similar items in For Sale listings, I think this is a suggestion of what it will look like when finished, but it never was. My eyeballs suggest the '70's bridge pickup is actually "lower" compared to the f hole than BA-200.

The routing for the neck PU looks different to me so I believe this was a I to II conversion but I'm not sure where it was done and I don't think the '70's picture above is of this bass.

Since my major source of exercise is jumping to conclusions I expect there are things to be corrected but...
 

mavuser

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fronobulax

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Only a maple bass would look like that, the mahogany is too dark. Cherry, black cherry burst, or "mahogany burst"

Spoilsport. I was just showing that "blue Starfire" was not a unicorn but really existed. I can imagine some transparent blues that would do just fine over mahogany. ;-)
 

Happy Face

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Way back in the DudePut days I polled the Guild group, including a few of you, about what finish to throw on the beater JS-II I was about to install Darkstars into.

The best or most popular or my fav choice was Pearl Opalescence. As an alternative, I was sold on a real bright white with the Chinese characters for electric thunder drawn on. I'm getting old! I told you all this story before, right?

Anyway, thanks to stains, neither would have worked.

So that Starfire may be a beautiful pallet. Try something fun! There aren't many purists around anymore, and most won't go out after the senior discount time at the Old Country Buffet ends. So they won't see you play live.
 

katthestar

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I'm kind of a purist myself, but not when it comes to color. Probably because my Gibson appears to have shedded a great deal, to the point where I had to strip the paint. It didn't come off right, so the guitar will still be blue, but I can't/don't want to do NCL again, so it will probably be a satin. A blue satin. I found a piece of the old color tonight, which reminded me why I had to get the damn thing out of my sight.

So, I would say do whatever is possible. A cherry might look nice, but I think you could go for any dark color. So a dark blue might be possible. I love blue, so I'm leaning towards that. But I know next to nothing about refinishing (my Gibson is maple, and will end up being whatever color my luthier is able to do, which will likely be blue, I actually wanted a natural finish, because the maple is so gorgeous).
 

dklsplace

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There aren't many purists around anymore, and most won't go out after the senior discount time at the Old Country Buffet ends. So they won't see you play live.

Get off my lawn!

When an instrument is in a state that calls for a complete refin/refurb, I have no concerns about "correct" finishes. After all, Guilds are "Made To Be Played." If uniqueness makes you enjoy it that much more, have at it. On the flip side of that, I've had to talk people out of doing complete refinishes on a vintage instrument that didn't call for it. Doesn't matter that they want it to be just like it was when their grandpa first bought it.....you're not doing yourself any favors in that case.
 

Haroldo

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The End Times? Or perhaps an Enlightenment of All Wisdom, Level 2? Or?

Ooops. It is PeteyBass , not PeteyBoy (from, dare I say it, TalkBass), who started this thread. My mistake and fulsome apology, Mr. PeteyBass.

It seemed to me he was waiting on the bass to arrive and there was some speculation as to what the bass would look like upon its arrival. Or maybe not.

At any rate, given that we are inching (footing? kilometering?) into the End Times, maybe we should get in on some of that Enlightenment of All Wisdom, Level 2 action.
 

Happy Face

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At any rate, given that we are inching (footing? kilometering?) into the End Times, maybe we should get in on some of that Enlightenment of All Wisdom, Level 2 action.

Good advice!
 
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