Information About ALB F40 #2

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Hello everyone. Today I bought a beautiful F40 w/ DTAR Elec. Sunburst from a local music store. I was told by the seller this guitar was 1 of 3 F40's made by Guild specifically for Alvin Lee Barnes. He tried all 3 and decided to take #1 (Natural Finish).
Numbers 2 & 3 supposedly were displayed at the Guild factory for a while and eventually sold privately. I am also told this was made in 1999 but have no way to verify since there is no serial number on it other than what was written on the label.
I'd love to know more about this if anyone here is an expert in this arena or knows the whole story behind these guitars. Either way good or bad this guitar plays and sounds amazing. It's going to make a nice companion to my D55 & D50BG. Thanks for your help!
https://app.box.com/s/n6m45gjw8zqghi9ptgg8sw9j6ux647zh
https://app.box.com/s/iyhil56684uj9y8mfd0a4dfmb2sx1r8d
https://app.box.com/s/nggdk3wrxjg15ohcz9bkrnnfgvetlfaj
 

gilded

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I can see the pics on my iMac.

Nice looking sunburst guitar.

One pic shows the label. It's 'Model ALB-40', 'Serial # 2', made in Westerly with a normal-looking label.

Hope somebody can come along that knows something about the association between Alvin Lee and Guild.
 

HeyMikey

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Wow that looks beautiful. Very cool story if true what a score. Congratulations!
 

hansmoust

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Hello everyone. Today I bought a beautiful F40 w/ DTAR Elec. Sunburst from a local music store. I was told by the seller this guitar was 1 of 3 F40's made by Guild specifically for Alvin Lee Barnes. He tried all 3 and decided to take #1 (Natural Finish).
Numbers 2 & 3 supposedly were displayed at the Guild factory for a while and eventually sold privately. I am also told this was made in 1999 but have no way to verify since there is no serial number on it other than what was written on the label.

Hello Danomyte,

Welcome! While this may be a very nice guitar I don't believe that this particular guitar was made during 1999 or in Westerly, RI for that matter.

I believe it was made many years after the Westerly, RI plant was closed. I don't have any knowledge about a special guitar made for Alvin Lee, but that doesn't mean anything. However, I find it somewhat strange that the guitar is offered with that story, no serial number and a label that pre-dates the construction date of the guitar.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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txbumper57

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First off let me say Welcome Danomyte and that looks like a cool guitar!

Here is the link to the Reverb ad that was listed earlier this week for this same guitar.

https://reverb.com/item/13643356-gu...-westerly-r-i-model-alb-40-with-original-case

The seller lists it as a F47R with a bit of backstory info on it but whether or not the info is accurate is up to interpretation. Supposedly it was purchased at a "Lets Meet Guild" event which didn't take place until 10 years or so after Westerly stopped production. Not to mention Guild moved production three times to Corona, Tacoma, and then New Hartford during that period. The guitar does have all the traits of being made much later like Hans mentions. From the Hardware most likely in New Hartford (2009-2014) with the Gotoh open back tuners and the DTAR Multisource along with the body shape itself which is completely different from a Westerly made model. This makes it very strange to have a Westerly made label in it. There have also been some blank Westerly made labels pop up for sale in recent months so I am not saying it is a forgery on the label, just that there are means to make one out there. Still a nice guitar and I hope you enjoy it but I would definitely try to verify the sellers info. These F47R's normally sell in this condition for around $1300-$1500 on the open market and it looks like there has been a substantial price hike according to the reverb ad to go along with the Alvin Lee Barnes story.


TX
 
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MLBob

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Beautiful burst.
Glad you got the chance to play & buy it locally.

Bob
 
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F312

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The top doesn't look like Adirondack IMHO, the bridge pins may not be original, or like a regular F47R. The pickguard looks different than a regular F47R from the era Tx estimates its age. I never saw gold tuners on an F47, unless it was a GSR or Custom Shop.

Ralph
 

txbumper57

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The top doesn't look like Adirondack IMHO, the bridge pins may not be original, or like a regular F47R. The pickguard looks different than a regular F47R from the era Tx estimates its age. I never saw gold tuners on an F47, unless it was a GSR or Custom Shop.

Ralph

The bridge pins are the same as the ones on my 2011 New Hartford GSR D50 Cocobolo and other New Hartford GSR Acoustic models. I believe they were referred to as "Parisian Eye" bridge pins and definitely a product of New Hartford. The tuners are not GSR and are the stock Gold Gotoh models that were found on the upper end New Hartford D55's and F50's and such. The GSR New Hartford Tuners of the period had the Guild Logo embossed on white plastic buttons like the Orpheums from New Hartford did. The Pickguard appears to be for a cutaway model and being all black possibly from a GAD model as they used that shape on non cutaway GAD models as well. Even as far back as 1999 most of the Westerly F47ce's I have seen had tortoise patterned pickguard material. Knowing Guild's stickler reputation for specs, LOL, I am sure there are a few out there with black pickguards though. The Bone "wavy" compensated saddle and Bone nut were not introduced until mid to late Tacoma production and was continued to be used through New Hartfrod.(circa 2007-2014). Westerly was still using Micarta for their nuts and saddles during 1999 and even the Nashville custom shop was using Micarta in the same period. The saddles from Westerly were also non compensated IIRC.

The one thing I can't tell from the photos is whether or not the headstock faceplate is solid Ebony wood or the Plastic that they used in Westerly. If it is solid ebony wood with visible grain that would put it being made later than Westerly for sure.

There is the slight possibility that this a guitar that was "refitted" with New Hartford Hardware at the factory and then sold but the major thing that conflicts with that conclusion is the body shape itself. This shape was based on the original early 60's F47 models and was not reintroduced into the Guild lineup until late Tacoma production carrying through the end of New Hartford (2007-2014). The Westerly made F47's have a completely different body shape to them.

Regardless of if the seller's story is legit or not it is a cool mix of different stuff and a really good looking guitar in my opinion.

Just a few observations of course.

TX
 
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fronobulax

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Hypothetically, suppose this instrument was a "one of" made in New Hartford. Is there anything in the photographs besides the label that would not support this hypothesis?

I have no idea who Alvin Lee Barnes is and Google does not help me. My ignorance and failure to find anything makes me wonder if there really was a person who could ask Guild to make 3 and let them pick one. If the reference is to Alvin Lee, of Ten Years After, then using neither his birth name nor his stage name is interesting and in my opinion undercuts the truth of the story.

The case candy has a 2007 copyright, several years after Westerly closed.

I think the label is bogus and but don't know whether it was created to deceive or by someone who wanted to add something that supported the story they had been told.

The cynic in me says the origin story is complete BS. The more charitable side of me says this may have been a "special" from New Hartford and the details got mangled as the story was told and retold.
 

Brad Little

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....I have no idea who Alvin Lee Barnes is ....
Was, he passed a few years ago. He was the guitarist in Ten Years After, a British blues band that had some success late 60s. He went by Alvin Lee. I saw them in Central Park, summer 1969. Pretty decent guitarist. I don't know what he did after that band or how long they were around.
Brad
 

wileypickett

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The cynic in me says the origin story is complete BS. The more charitable side of me says this may have been a "special" from New Hartford and the details got mangled as the story was told and retold.

I'm in the "complete BS" category myself.

Somebody put that bogus label in there and that indicates an intention to deceive.

It's possible the seller may have been duped by the story and not being an expert on Guilds, just repeated what they'd been told by whoever they got the guitar from.

Danomyte, you may want to raise this issue with them. You paid a premium for a guitar whose provenance is contradicted by the evidence.

If you love the guitar, see if they'll work with you on the price. If they are an above-board dealer, they'll want to maintain a good reputation for honest dealing.

Let us know if you learn more!
 

adorshki

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Somebody put that bogus label in there and that indicates an intention to deceive.
I'm inclined to agree, and to agree with the New Hartford-built assessments, especially because of that body shape, and that makes me recall:
Weren't some "B" stock instruments offered to members at the LMG events?
Wonder if this puppy never actually had a label and it was an attempt to introduce some credibility about the maker, at least?
Could also explain the story that the guitar was purchased at an LMG event.
It's possible the seller may have been duped by the story and not being an expert on Guilds, just repeated what they'd been told by whoever they got the guitar from.
Yep, wouldn't be the first time.
Danomyte, you may want to raise this issue with them. You paid a premium for a guitar whose provenance is contradicted by the evidence.
Yes, w-a-a-ay overpaid, I think, in fact.
"Provenance is everything" at that price, and I think you could do a whole lot better for an equal if not superior example with full provenance, even if it's just a correct label.
 

bobouz

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Unfortunately, whether knowingly or unknowingly, the guitar has been misrepresented by the seller.

Although listed as an "As-Is" sale, I would insist on returning the instrument unless the seller is willing to renegotiate a selling price that is more reasonably based on current F-47R value. Reverb might be able to assist in this process.
 

wileypickett

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I would insist on returning the instrument unless the seller is willing to renegotiate a selling price that is more reasonably based on current F-47R value. Reverb might be able to assist in this process.

That's what I recommend too.
 

beecee

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I googled those bridge pins, (I really like 'em). Not cheap huh???? $7 + per.
 

SFIV1967

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It is clearly a New Hartford built guitar and no older than 2012! The laser marking "GUILD USA" on the back bracing was only introduced in New Hartford mid of 2012!

zsvmoufzuazya3nfuhef.jpg


So yes, the "Westerly" label is definitely wrong in that guitar as the last Guild left Westerly in 2001.
The Guild owners manual is the one provided by New Hartford, with that copyright date of 2007, as it was just reused from Tacoma days without reprinting it. Which again would speak against any earlier date...

The pickguard is also unusal. It is a F-47RCE shaped pickguard like it was used during Corona times (I mean the shape) which also would not be one a F-47 model without cutout, but I am not aware that New Hartford had this style or in black. Usually they were only available in Tortoise in NH. So looks like added later on. Some NH models shipped without the added pickguard, I believe the pickguard was supplied in the case in such instances.

As there is no serial number on the guitar left, it is impossible to ask Guild for info. But all evidence points to a later 2012 or 2013 made guitar.

Alvin Lee (Graham Anthony Barnes) died on 3/6/2013 in Marbella/Spain, so that would have been a guitar that was just finished shortly before his unexpected death. Well, if it was made for him...

The guitar was most probably really shipped with gold hardware, not only the tuners but also the TRC screws and the New Hartford style strap button are in gold. However it is mounted on an unusal position for New Hartford, I doubt the factory mounted it at the neck heel.

So it might have been made for a show or a dealer or even an artist as the standard was nickel/chrome hardware.

As proof that the Guild USA laser marking was only introduced in 2012:
See a 2012 New Hartford one without USA on the bracing (day 96 in 2012) and one after it was introduced (here day 240 in 2012):

nhd50label.jpg
krdhdotyr4lbts3hapkw.jpg



Tacoma built or Westely built guitars also only had GUILD on the bracing without the USA behind:

IMG_1834.jpg


WombCT024.jpg




Anyway, welcome to danomyte and enjoy that wonderful guitar! A New Hartford built F-47R ATB is an excellent guitar! Who cares about a wrong label!

You could have a look inside the body with a mirror, sometimes you see a signature just inside the soundhole. It might show who built her.

Oh, and if you are interested here were the catalog specs of the model as it was offered from New Hartford:


  • Model Name: F47R
  • Model Number: 380-3000
  • Category: Traditional Series
  • Body Style: Grand Orchestra
  • Top: Solid Red Spruce
  • Bracing: Guild Scalloped Red Spruce
  • Back: Solid Rosewood
  • Sides: Solid Rosewood
  • Bridge: Rosewood
  • Neck: Three-Piece Mahogany
  • Fretboard: Rosewood (12" Radius)
  • Width at Nut: 1-11/16"
  • No. of Frets: 20
  • Scale Length: 25-5/8"
  • Hardware: Nickel
  • Machine Heads: Gotoh 500 Series Open-Back Tuners
  • Finish: High Gloss (Nitrocellulose Lacquer)
  • Lower Bout: 16"
  • Neck Joint: Dovetail
  • Bridge Pins: Bone
  • Pickguard: Tortoise Shell
  • Binding: White neck and body bindings with Multi-laminate Purfling
  • Nut: Bone
  • Saddle: Bone
  • Position Inlay: Mother-Of-Pearl Blocks
  • Case: Deluxe Hardshell Case
  • Strings: Replace with Guild L350 Phosphor Bronze, p/n 3500350000, Gauges .012, .016, .025, .032, .042, .053

Ralf
 
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F312

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Since someone made additions and changes, someone may have changed the tuners and strap button to gold too. Still a fine guitar.

Ralph
 

SFIV1967

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Since someone made additions and changes, someone may have changed the tuners and strap button to gold too. Still a fine guitar.
Sure, that is definitely possible. It's just all a bit unusal in that complete package and the guitar looks brand new otherwise.
Ralf
 
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