Why Guild Solid Body?

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GAD

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Sometimes the best choice is not Guild. :)

Heretic!

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PittPastor

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Well you can have your opinion about wood in solid bodies but if I tell you I can't hear the difference between a Sitka topped and an Adirondack topped acoustic does that make me the heretic?

Nope. I think that much of the religious fervor some people have around wood is subjective at best, and delusional at worst. I have that feeling about many things in music, TBH. I remember when Bayer had a commercial touting their aspirin was clinically proven to dissolve 23% faster than the generic brand. That works out to be about 13 seconds. How many people could notice that effectiveness? People are comforted by perception sometimes. "I take Bayer aspirin because it gives me faster relief." How do they know that? Bayer told them.

I do think there are people that can hear the difference -- in a studio. I would be shocked if anyone could hear the difference plugged into all of the stuff on a stage that it passes through before it hits the air. Just because I'm a Pastor doesn't mean I can't be a skeptic!

I might suggest your experience with a piezo on an acoustic does not generalize to a guitar and pickup that were built from the beginning to be electric.

That's a fair point. But at the end of the day, wood is still wood and pickups are still pickups. According to Humbucker (a magnetic pickup): "A vibrating guitar string, magnetized by a fixed magnet within the pickup, induces an alternating voltage across its coil(s)."

There is no mention of picking up ambient wood resonance at all. Now, I guess one could argue that the wood will change the way a string vibrates. But that feels like a desperate attempt to make a point.


If you want to explore wood differences you might try mahogany and maple Starfires. If you can't hear a difference then there is no point in looking for wood options in solid bodies. But if you can hear a difference than you might have a wood preference in solids. If nothing else a lot of people pick their solid wood based upon the weight of the guitar. If you can't do three one hour sets with it then the tone probably doesn't matter.

That is an excellent idea. I only wish I could do that. There isn't a single place within an 4 hour drive (that I know of) that even has Guild guitars. I wish I could -- like the old days -- walk into a music store and have loads of models of guitars to choose from, and take a day to play them and decide. Man those were the days! Now it's: "Welcome to Guitar Center. You can have any electric guitar you want as long as it is made by Fender or Gibson. If you want acoustic, please check our deep stock of Taylors and Martins. If you have any questions, just ask Slasher, the heavily tatted guy over there with the gauges in his ears. He's a drummer. But he know guitars man..."
 

PittPastor

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I'll simply say this: if wood doesn't affect tone, then why does an SG sound different than a Les Paul? Also, certain woods have different sustain and resonance. You don't think those translate to the pickup? If the note sustains longer isn't that sustained note different than one that doesn't sustain?

IDK. Design maybe? I honestly have never done an A/B compare, but what I read tells me -- whatever makes the difference -- it can't be the wood:

From a recent review online:

The biggest similarity across the board is the wood, mahogany to be specific. Mahogany is a warm, resonant tonewood with a rich brown color. Both the Les Paul and the SG have mahogany bodies and set mahogany necks. This, combined with the Gibson humbuckers, is what gives both guitars that thick, fat tone

If this is true, the wood isn't making the difference...

Really though, the amp and effects can easily negate or change and difference you hear which is why any guitar Billy Gibbons picks up on stage sounds like Pearly Gates - they're all EQ'd to do so. :encouragement:

This I fully believe!
 

Nuuska

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Hello

Any physical object has its resonance spectrum. Depending on material - size - shape - things attached to it like hardware and paint. So i am firm believer, that the wood body and neck plus hardware together affect on how the string vibrates - sustain & overtones. After that come pickup and amp and they do their own magic.

This is quite easy to check - if your local music store has ONE quality solid body and one El-Cheapo. Play them both unplugged and compare.

When comparing quality instruments the difference is not as great as when comparing oranges to rotten apples.



GAD "Really though, the amp and effects can easily negate or change and difference you hear which is why any guitar Billy Gibbons picks up on stage sounds like Pearly Gates - they're all EQ'd to do so.
encouragement.png
"

Very much of that is also simply The Touch - we all play differently - you can have two persons play the same guitar/amp setup and they both may sound very different without tweaking any knobs.
 
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adorshki

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There is no mention of picking up ambient wood resonance at all. Now, I guess one could argue that the wood will change the way a string vibrates. But that feels like a desperate attempt to make a point.
Pickups can have "microphonic" tendencies: picking up the resonance from the wood besides just having their magnetic fields tickled by the strings.

In fact the whole inductance principle pickups are based on, is also a basis for the magnetic creation of mechanical motion, as in starter motors.
In that application, the current to the winding drives a piston (the pole) which isn't held captive, mechanically.
In a pickup, it's the opposite:
Since the pole can't move, the current generated as the string interferes with its field is picked up by the windings and routed to the control pots.
Whether the string itself actually gets magnetized was discussed here a while back:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...tric-Guitar-Works&highlight=magnetized+string
See matsickma's comment in post #9 for an elegant summary.
 
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fronobulax

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That's a fair point. But at the end of the day, wood is still wood and pickups are still pickups. According to Humbucker (a magnetic pickup): "A vibrating guitar string, magnetized by a fixed magnet within the pickup, induces an alternating voltage across its coil(s)."

There is no mention of picking up ambient wood resonance at all.

I think part of your skepticism may come from an incorrect understanding of what a pickup picks up in the real world. I have several pickups that also pick up finger noise, the thud of a string on a fret and tapping on the body. Damp the strings and try making noises and you should be able to hear examples (at least if you use headphones). It's not just electromagnetic even though that is the theoretical ideal.

It is also possible to get a solid body instrument to feedback although you don't want to try that at home or when the neighbors are about. I am skeptical that the only factor is the air vibrating the strings. I'd say the body is involved.
 

DThomasC

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I can't imagine how the material wouldn't make a difference, but I understand that it's hard to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, and the doubt part is almost a matter of faith. In other words, people are gonna end up believing whatever they believe. That goes for me too, I suppose.

I do have a couple of data points:

1. I have three S-300's. Two of them are as identical as Guild could make them except that one has an ash body and maple neck while the other is all mahogany. They sound distinctly different, and the difference is exactly what I would expect. Comparatively speaking, the ash/maple instrument is snappy and clear while the mahogany version is smoother and fuller with a bloom that you might not notice until you play the ash/maple one.

Where's the doubt? The difference could be in the pickups (all HB-1's) and pots and tone caps. Even then, if you talk to the die hard wood-doesn't-matter group, they'll remind you that every piece of wood is different, so it could just be luck. By that they mean that we could find two more similar guitars, but in that case the mahogany one might be snappy while the ash/maple one would be rich and creamy. OK, whatever. I can't prove anything.

2. The other data point is two guitars with TV Jones T'Armond pickups. One is a Telecaster with an ash body and one piece maple neck and fingerboard. (There's no separate fingerboard; the frets are set directly into the maple neck.) It happens to be a 50's Baja Classic Player made in Mexico in 2016, if it matters to anyone. The other guitar with T'Armonds is my 2002 Corona made Bluesbird P-90.

Do they sound and play differently? Very much. The difference is basically the same as the difference between the two S-300's. The Tele is very clear and "fast." When you hit a note or chord, the sound is all right there all at once, like striking a brass bell. The Bluesbird is smoother and fuller. More like striking a wooden bell.

Well, obviously the Tele is snappier. It has a 3% longer scale length. :suspicion:


As a side note, I have a third S-300 with HB-1's. That one has a maple neck bolted to a mahogany body. It sounds more like the ash/maple one than the all mahogany one, which is consistent with the internet lore that the neck affects the sound more than the body - obviously we're talking about solid body electrics, not acoustic guitars.
 

GAD

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IDK. Design maybe? I honestly have never done an A/B compare, but what I read tells me -- whatever makes the difference -- it can't be the wood:

LOL - the design... of an all wood instrument? If the design of the wood can change the tone, why can't the density (or any other factor)? If the wood doesn't matter, then why does a semi-hollow sound different than a solid body? Why does a hollow body sound different then both of those? It's just wood, right? If wood doesn't matter why aren't they all made from balsa wood to limit weight? Or Maple to be beautiful? Or plastic because it just doesn't matter?

No offense, but you've convinced yourself of something and are now engaged in arguments about it after stating, "I confess to be totally ignorant about electric guitars." My advice is to try some and you'll see for yourself. There's a reason why some woods are called tonewoods, and there's a reason certain woods are used for certain timbres. Deciding that this doesn't apply for electrics doesn't make it so. Without experience, you're arguing from a position of hypotheticals against the decades of experience of countless people who have experienced for themselves how it works.

It is tempting to think of an electric guitar as a simple electronic device. As someone who's done a fair bit of testing with rigs like this:

5D3_9181-1600.jpg


...in order to evaluate frequency responses of different pickups in different guitars, I can tell you that they are anything but. BTW that's an oscilloscope and waveform generator if you're curious.
 

Quantum Strummer

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I second GAD on the experience factor. Play a bunch of electric guitars, of various designs and using various woods, and then draw some conclusions based on your own hands-on and ears-open experience.

-Dave-
 

Dr. Hook

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I love my Guild electric. I just got the restoration finished of my 64 Polara and it's all set up and ready to go. I don't know why I ever threw it aside for a Telecaster (and I have a good Tele too). The Guild neck is more suitable to me, it's a bit more compact and the shape suits my playing. It was my first electric guitar, so really, my first love, and not having played it in about 15 years, all I can say is 'what an idiot I am.' If I ever buy another electric, it will be a vintage M-75 Bluesbird from the 60s or early 70s.
 

PittPastor

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1. I have three S-300's. Two of them are as identical as Guild could make them except that one has an ash body and maple neck while the other is all mahogany. They sound distinctly different, and the difference is exactly what I would expect. Comparatively speaking, the ash/maple instrument is snappy and clear while the mahogany version is smoother and fuller with a bloom that you might not notice until you play the ash/maple one.

This as close to a good example as I think we can reasonably expect. You don't happen to have a soundcloud of the identical piece being played on both, do you? I would like listen and see if my ear can pick up the difference.

Hello
Any physical object has its resonance spectrum. Depending on material - size - shape - things attached to it like hardware and paint. So i am firm believer, that the wood body and neck plus hardware together affect on how the string vibrates - sustain & overtones. After that come pickup and amp and they do their own magic.
This is quite easy to check - if your local music store has ONE quality solid body and one El-Cheapo. Play them both unplugged and compare.

That would really only be true if the only difference is the wood. I am assuming that there are a lot of other differences between a high quality guitar and an "El-Cheapo" though.

I think part of your skepticism may come from an incorrect understanding of what a pickup picks up in the real world. I have several pickups that also pick up finger noise, the thud of a string on a fret and tapping on the body. Damp the strings and try making noises and you should be able to hear examples (at least if you use headphones). It's not just electromagnetic even though that is the theoretical ideal.

Is that finger noise on the wood? Or the strings? If you dampen the strings with one hand and tap on the wood with the other, does it make a sound you can hear on a humbucker? That's an honest question. I am curious about the answer.

LOL - the design... of an all wood instrument? If the design of the wood can change the tone, why can't the density (or any other factor)? If the wood doesn't matter, then why does a semi-hollow sound different than a solid body? Why does a hollow body sound different then both of those? It's just wood, right? If wood doesn't matter why aren't they all made from balsa wood to limit weight? Or Maple to be beautiful? Or plastic because it just doesn't matter?

I think you missed my point. I was saying that -- since the SG and Les Paul were made out of identical wood -- and since they sound different, then it would be reasonable to assume that the difference in sound is not coming from the wood itself, but rather something else.

If I make a cake with exactly the same cake batter and put one in a cake form and one in a muffin pan, and you tasted them and said: "Hey these taste different" we wouldn't think the cake batter was making the difference... would we?


No offense, but you've convinced yourself of something and are now engaged in arguments about it after stating, "I confess to be totally ignorant about electric guitars."


I've been posting on the internet for almost as long as "Al Gore invented it."

This is a discussion, not an argument. The difference is my mind is open, and I am trying to understand. An online argument would be if I were trying to prove myself right.

I stopped doing online arguments a long time ago...
 

fronobulax

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Is that finger noise on the wood? Or the strings? If you dampen the strings with one hand and tap on the wood with the other, does it make a sound you can hear on a humbucker? That's an honest question. I am curious about the answer.

Damp the strings with one hand. Tap the headstock or body with the other. Hear tapping sounds in headphones that are coming from the pickup and not "through the air".

I think you missed my point. I was saying that -- since the SG and Les Paul were made out of identical wood -- and since they sound different, then it would be reasonable to assume that the difference in sound is not coming from the wood itself, but rather something else.

Some Les Pauls are chambered so there is that to consider. A one piece body will vibrate differently than a multiple piece body. The shape of a piece of wood will determine its vibrational characteristics. The type of wood (grain and density) will determine the vibrational characteristics of the wood. For those who believe the body does effect what is ultimately sensed by the pickups that is enough to explain the sonic differences. Perhaps you chould try and explain why they sound different if the wood is not a factor?

If I make a cake with exactly the same cake batter and put one in a cake form and one in a muffin pan, and you tasted them and said: "Hey these taste different" we wouldn't think the cake batter was making the difference... would we?

I'm not sure I understand your point as it relates to instruments, but I do know that the difference in surface area exposed to metal during cooking will have an effect on the final product ("crust"). They will taste different and it will not be the batter, but the cooking process, that explains the difference.

I've been posting on the internet for almost as long as "Al Gore invented it."

If that is supposed to mean anything then I have been "discussing" things on D/ARPANET before Mr Gore was even elected to the House. :)

This is a discussion, not an argument. The difference is my mind is open, and I am trying to understand. An online argument would be if I were trying to prove myself right.

How long ago was your last physics course and at what level?

Given the large amount of research done on stringed instruments there is no doubt in my mind that wood, construction techniques, strings and several other factors effect the sound of an acoustic instrument. I think a lot of people agree with me. The question seems to be whether observing with a pickup changes which factors contribute. I will say I can hear differences in solid body instruments that are played but not plugged in, but none of those experiences were controlled enough to say the only factor contributing to the differences was the wood.
 

PittPastor

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Given the large amount of research done on stringed instruments there is no doubt in my mind that wood, construction techniques, strings and several other factors effect the sound of an acoustic instrument. I think a lot of people agree with me. The question seems to be whether observing with a pickup changes which factors contribute. I will say I can hear differences in solid body instruments that are played but not plugged in, but none of those experiences were controlled enough to say the only factor contributing to the differences was the wood.

TBH, it probably doesn't even matter. I'm just curious.
 

Quantum Strummer

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My observation concerning electric guitars is this: everything about 'em affects the way they sound. The characteristics of the materials they're made of, how those materials are fitted together and interact with each other, the type and gauge of strings you use…

Last year I bought a pair of Fender JV series Strats from 1982, the first few months of Fender Japan (Fuji-gen Gakki factory) production. One has a rosewood fretboard ('62 reissue) and the other a single-piece maple neck/board ('57 reissue). The former is dark & rich for a Strat while the latter is brighter & snappier. After I got 'em both set up and dialed in I decided for kicks to swap the necks around as I'd never before owned maple and rosewood board Strats at the same time. I was amazed at how much of each guitar's basic sound traveled with the neck to the other body.

-Dave-
 

DThomasC

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TBH, it probably doesn't even matter. I'm just curious.

Says the guy that seems to actively resist accepting observations from intelligent people that have already given this matter a great deal of thought.

My opinion is that a person ought to either take ownership of their opinions or consider abandoning them.

DThomasC said:
1. I have three S-300's. Two of them are as identical as Guild could make them except that one has an ash body and maple neck while the other is all mahogany. They sound distinctly different, and the difference is exactly what I would expect. Comparatively speaking, the ash/maple instrument is snappy and clear while the mahogany version is smoother and fuller with a bloom that you might not notice until you play the ash/maple one.

This as close to a good example as I think we can reasonably expect. You don't happen to have a soundcloud of the identical piece being played on both, do you? I would like listen and see if my ear can pick up the difference.

Yeah, no, I don't have those recordings.

This 'debate' is almost continuously ongoing over at thegearpage.net. At one point i considered making the recordings you suggest. In fact, I went so far as to buy a bunch of rotary switches that I would use to make volume and tone controls, each with a limited number of discrete settings. That way you could, for example, set the volume on 6 and the tone on 4 on both guitars and know that they were set exactly the same. More importantly, nobody could say "yeah but how do you know the difference in sound wasn't just because the controls were set slightly differently? I reject your demonstration. I deem it NULL and VOID."

To be honest, I didn't finish the project because I decided that it's just not my problem. I believe and have total faith that the sound of a solidbody electric guitar depends hugely on the materials. There's countless number of things that matter. It's obvious that different guitars sound different. Something must be responsible for the difference; that's just basic logic. The notion that things like the quality of the bridge and tuners or the shape of the headstock matter but the species of wood doesn't just seems preposterous to me.

So, somewhere along the way I just got tired of trying to discus that notion rationally. Why I should I bother?
 
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GAD

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I think you missed my point. I was saying that -- since the SG and Les Paul were made out of identical wood -- and since they sound different, then it would be reasonable to assume that the difference in sound is not coming from the wood itself, but rather something else.

If I make a cake with exactly the same cake batter and put one in a cake form and one in a muffin pan, and you tasted them and said: "Hey these taste different" we wouldn't think the cake batter was making the difference... would we?

Ah - but a Les Paul is made with a much thicker Mahogany body **with a maple top**. That's why they sound so different. They are constructed differently with different wood combinations.

Go listen to an all maple Starfire and then compare it to an all mahogany Starfire. Totally different animal, exact same muffin pan. :wink-new:

I've been posting on the internet for almost as long as "Al Gore invented it."

This is a discussion, not an argument. The difference is my mind is open, and I am trying to understand. An online argument would be if I were trying to prove myself right.

I stopped doing online arguments a long time ago...

Semantics. The term "argue" has nothing to do with "fighting".

Argue: give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.


 
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