Odd 1970 Starfire bass II

Mobros1

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Hello I am new to LTG – I am in the process of purchasing a 1970 guild StarFire bass II
The serial number is 46719, But there are some odd things about it. The first ofd thing that I noticed Is that it has whale tail tuners and I thought it was supposed to have clovers? The second thing is the model number – says SF base II SB. I thought SB meant Sunburst, But it is cherry red...? The third thing is that it has an early 70s DeArmond Pick up in between the two Bisonics, and there is a “chicken head” six position pick up switch, where the normal starfire pick up switch Is normally located. There is also two additional volume/tone knobs. The bass had all of these modifications done to it before 1974, when my friend purchased the bass. I tried to upload pictures, but I am having struggles with that. He is asking $1000, but the case Is not original and is not in very good condition. Does this seem like a good deal? Is it possible that this bass came from Guild this way, and SB stands for “studio bass?” Thanks for any assistance you could give me!
 

Mobros1

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Odd 1970 Starfire Bass II

Hello All:
I am new to LTG, and am seeking help on an Odd Starfire Bass II that I am purchasing. The seller is a friend of mine and he has had the bass since 1974, where he bought it from the previous owner. The Serial Number is 46719. The Model Number is SF BassII SB. The color is Brown (not sunburst) so my first question is- does the SB possibly mean "Stereo Bass" or "Studio Bass?"- it does not appear to be refinished. My second question- The bass has whale tail tuners (not clovers) those have been on there since 1974- Did guild change these for any reason or did the previous owner do that before 1974? AND here is the real strange thing. My third question- The Bass has an early 70's DeArmond pickup in between the 2 original BiSonics, it has 2 extra Guild Volume & Tone Knob and a "chicken Head" 6 position pick up dial where the original pickup selector is typically located on a Starfire II... Again my friend purchased this bass this way 1974- he did not change the finish, tuners, and he did not add the extra pickup/selector/V/T dials. Do you think it's worth $1000 bucks? It's really cool!
 

mellowgerman

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Welcome! That bass is worth way more than that as long as it doesn't have any serious structural issues!
My guess is that the bass was refinished and the Dearmond pickup and the extra controls were added by the previous owner. There are a few accounts of owners taking their basses to Guild to have factory modifications done after the initial purchase, but it seems less likely. Also, when you say Whale Tail tuners... nothing that Guild used comes to mind as per that description, so I'd guess those are probably after-market as well. A lot of people swapped out the original tuners, probably because they were the reverse-turning style, like old Gibson Thunderbird basses used to have too. Might have been difficult for some to adjust to if they played other basses as well with more "standard" Fender-ish tuners.

PLEASE SHARE SOME PHOTOS! :)

they do have to be "hosted" elsewhere and then you use the IMG coding to share them here (easiest hosting site is probably imgur.com these days)
 
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Mobros1

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Having trouble

I tried posting pictures from IMGUR and they didn’t show up- do the posts have to get ok’d before they show up?
 

mellowgerman

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I see them; cool bass!
The pickup in the middle is not a DeArmond pickup, it is a 70's Guild humbucker -- I suppose I shouldn't definitively say that it ISN'T a DeArmond pickup, but I'm pretty positive they were not sourced from DeArmond... LTG folks, did an outside company make them for Guild? Anyway, these pickups started replacing Hagstrom Bisonics in stock Guild basses in 1971. The bridge position Bisonic would have had to have been moved back a bit to make room for the humbucker... It also looks like there was also a Fender-style Jazz bass pickup in the bridge position, the giveaway being the peaking cavity. I have put Bisonics in a few jazz basses and that is unmistakably the result.
Anyway, all that modification considered, if those Bisonics work as they should, I would run $1k credit for this bass any day (and figure out later how to pay for it later)

Also, those tuners are aftermarket for sure and the 6-position switch is where the latching "tone-suck" push switch would have been originally. The pickup selector would have been at the very end of the treble-side horn, where yours looks to have a knob... any idea what it does?
 
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fronobulax

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Welcome. Posts have to be moderated for a bit. You are almost done.

1970 was a transition year for Guild basses so I would never be certain if a feature appeared too early or too late. So either type of tuner could be factory AFAIK.

Looks like a Guild Humbucker added, not a D'Armond, to me. There are several Starfires that someone thought needed to be upgraded by swapping in a Guild humbucker. Several decades later we all wonder what they were thinking.

Never seen "SB" on a Guild bass when it wasn't Sunburst but maybe it was one of the rarer stereos marked in a non-standard fashion?

Middle pickup, chicken head and one of the tone and one of the volume controls are definitely not factory. It sure looks to me like it has been refinished. Maybe that was the only thing to do after the mods?

It looks like the narrow headstock so it should almost certainly fit a Newark Street case if you want to upgrade.

If it has no structural issues that is a very good price, IMO, close to taking advantage of your friend.
 

fronobulax

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mellow and I never disagree, but sometimes we have to work to pull the points of agreement closer.

I think the bass left the factory as a Bisonic equipped SF II and the Bisonics were not moved. We have seen factory installations where the harp bridge overlaps the mounts.

BA-1776 (below) is a 1968.

ba-1776.jpg


For comparison, notice the tuners, bridge/PU overlap, "suck switch", PU selector and master volume.
 

mgod

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It looks like someone’s attempt to simulate a 345.

Anyway, yeah - easily worth $1000. Even more if you get that middle pickup out of it.
 

Happy Face

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At first glance, too good to be true at that price.

No longer a collector's bass, but potentially a wicked player.
 

katthestar

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I think those tuners are the originals. I've seen some Guild basses with those tuners in Hans' book, all the M-85's in the book have them. I remember because it made me worry mine was the oddball. The 1968 M-85 has those tuners as well. I think the refin looks nice, it's different from the cherry, black and sunburst you see the most. I actually like the mod, I've thought about getting a 3 pickup bass, I like the idea of the sonic options. Yes, $1,000 is a steal! I paid $2,000 for my 90's reissue Starfire II with Dark Stars in place of the HB1's. How's the action? How does it sound?

Also, glad to know that the factory sometimes have the harp bridge overlapping with the pickups. My bass is like that, but I always assumed it was the because the Dark Stars were larger than the pickups they replaced.
 

mellowgerman

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VEER ALERT! (these detours happen pretty frequently here)

Frono, you're right that we've seen that phenomena and now that I look at the photo of the red Starfire you posted, it looks like there is an unusual amount of space between the pickups... are we sure that one definitely left the factory originally as a SFB-II? It looks like brads are visible for the "extra" controls, but those could be added as well. On the flip-side of the coin, this all makes me wonder about another possible variable of the bridge actually being mounted closer to the neck? All the mounting of hardware and routing of pickup cavities was done by hand back then, right? So there would naturally be a margin of human error, which could also have resulted in the occasional un-intonatable E string saddle -- like on my 1970 SFB. I actually ended up filling and redrilling the mounting screw holes to fix this issue with both my bass and a 1968 SFB that belongs to a friend, who had the same issue of the E string saddle not being adjustable forward far enough for proper intonation.
All that said, I have never held any stock dual-pickup Guild that would have enough room for that middle pickup. The only exception in my mind would be one of the mismatch-pickup basses with the Hagstrom mini-humbucker in the bridge position. Though I don't have any way of measuring the 70's Guildbucker right now, I'm pretty sure they have the same footprint as the Bisonic.
Of course, as we've found, it seems almost nothing is impossible in regard to vintage Guilds and their factory variations, so all my ramblings must be taken with a grain of salt.
 

fronobulax

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We won't know how much work was done to add the humbucker unless the owner takes it apart so your speculation is as good as mine.

We have seen enough examples of the harp overlapping the bridge PU that I have to believe they are factory. Given the amount of work done by hand I am satisfied with an explanation that says everything was within tolerance but all of the errors accumulated in one direction. I do wonder why a visual inspection did not prevent the bass from leaving but if it could be set up and intonated to factory spec maybe that's grounds for shipping it?
 

fronobulax

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Lookie what I found.

DSCF0835.jpg


Discussed here. 1970. Serial 50074. Hans commented but not specifically on the middle pickup. His comments suggest it was not a factory install to me. Perhaps the fact that it is a guitar pickup...

If you go to the thread the archive of Starfire bass photos is no longer online, a casualty of Google changing their hosting. Incidentally the source of my story that Barry Oakly's son offered $600 for a Bisonic and was refused is in that thread.
 

Happy Face

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Well, there you go. Now it's getting interesting. Perhaps.
 

Mobros1

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Wow- You folks are making me very excited to get this bass! I will give a full report when I get it, and will post more pictures. Thanks for all the help!
 

Mobros1

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Hello all- I now have this bass and I (along with my heavy duty "fix it" guy) are ready to start digging into getting it to a playable and good looking standard. I will be sprinkling in pictures as time goes by, because I have what seems like a TON of questions about it. I have enough Fenders to choke a Clydesdale, but this is my first and only SF bass. Even though the action is a little high and the neck is a smaller/thinner than what I am used to, I really like it and I see its potential!

The first thing that is very strange to me is the back of the headstock (which was not in the original set of pictures)- It looks to have been repaired, but the guy I bought it from is a friend, and he really has no reason to lie to me or keep that from me because he just wanted someone who would appreciate to have it. He also said that he would gladly give me money back, if I didn't feel good about the deal. SO- knowing that the pickups, hardware etc. alone are worth more than I paid for it- So- I bought it.
Therefore question :
1. Shouldn't it have the serial number stamped at the top?- it's not there...
 
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hansmoust

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Here is the back of the headstock.

Hello Mobros1,

That looks like the back of the headstock has a wood veneer glued to it. Most likely the guitar had a repair and the veneer was added to make it look better and because of that the guitar no longer has a serial number in that location.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

Mobros1

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Thank you, sir!
My next question is about straightening the neck. Being that it is a 70 (older)- does the truss rod provide the neck relief by tightening and loosening (like Fenders)- or is the neck straightened by hand and then the truss rod is tightened to hold it in place (like old Rickenbackers)?
 
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