Strange starfire IV serial number from the 90's ?

ianb

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
40
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
a buddy of mine picked up a starfire IV this evening that is obviously westerly made. the serial number is AG001065 (same on the label and the headstock).
i know we can wait untill it gets here and date it with the pots and whatnot but i was curious of the odd serial number and thought i would see what you guys had to say about it :

cqlZmxZ.jpg


4mZ9utj.jpg
 
Last edited:

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,582
Reaction score
17,799
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Can we see the front? Looks like '90s to me, but Hans knows best.
 

hansmoust

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
9,201
Reaction score
3,504
Location
Netherlands
a buddy of mine picked up a starfire IV this evening that is obviously westerly made. the serial number is AG001065 (same on the label and the headstock).
i know we can wait untill it gets here and date it with the pots and whatnot but i was curious of the odd serial number and thought i would see what you guys had to say about it

Hello ianb,

Not sure what you find strange about the serial number, but what I can tell you is that it's a Starfire from 1998.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
a buddy of mine picked up a starfire IV this evening that is obviously westerly made. the serial number is AG001065 (same on the label and the headstock).
i know we can wait untill it gets here and date it with the pots and whatnot but i was curious of the odd serial number and thought i would see what you guys had to say about it :
I think maybe you were thrown off by the s/n charts:
Even though that very last section's header implies it shows s/n's up to '99, and shows "1997"; Hans has mentioned before even that's not correct, they barely even go to '97.
For example re-issue Starfire basses that came out in '97 don't even have a slot, nor does the revived D40 that came out even later.
So basically there's no formal listings (that I know of) for anything from '98-'01.
:eek:
 

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,455
Reaction score
7,110
Location
Central Massachusetts
Looks nice from what we can see of it, Ian. Can't go wrong with those 3-piece lam. necks! I see some small lacquer chips on the back of the crown... Love to see the whole thing when you get it!
 

ianb

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
40
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
I think maybe you were thrown off by the s/n charts:
Even though that very last section's header implies it shows s/n's up to '99, and shows "1997"; Hans has mentioned before even that's not correct, they barely even go to '97.
For example re-issue Starfire basses that came out in '97 don't even have a slot, nor does the revived D40 that came out even later.
So basically there's no formal listings (that I know of) for anything from '98-'01.
:eek:

yup - that's it.I blame the charts!!! :) . the charts and the ones i've seen in person all seem to have some variant of letter prefix, a string of 3-4 zeroes and then a 3-4 digit number where this one has a seemingly random 1 thrown in to the middle of things. if those charts only go to 97 though, it would make sense that this one would be later than that.
 

ianb

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
40
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
Hello ianb,

Not sure what you find strange about the serial number, but what I can tell you is that it's a Starfire from 1998.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl


Thanks Hans.
i think comparing mine against the charts and then this one having a number outside of what they list gave some initial confusion.Thanks for the clarification though.
 

ianb

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
40
Reaction score
1
Location
Tennessee
Looks nice from what we can see of it, Ian. Can't go wrong with those 3-piece lam. necks! I see some small lacquer chips on the back of the crown... Love to see the whole thing when you get it!

it looks like a gorgeous guitar in relatively good shape for its' age. The seller said the pickups have been changed to duncans ( looks like they changed the rings at the same time )and everything else looks stock. here's what i could lift off the ebay page:
jvywqFQ.jpg


KcYUTPM.jpg


uuMGGOc.jpg

WWcYiqC.jpg
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Yeah, the rule of thumb is that the online serial number charts are wrong and incomplete, except when they are correct.

If I have a serial and model I first check the chart and if I can find it and there are no obvious typos in the chart I go with that. If I find something that is close I see if it makes sense for the number to be from the next year after the chart and maybe go with that. I remember that serial number schemes did not always change on the first of the year and that some chart entries are either the first or last number for a year. If I am motivated I find Hans' book since the charts there have all the corrections he knew about at publication time. Finally I ask here.

And I won't worry too much. At least for Westerly electrics serial numbers were stamped on the necks. The necks were then put into a "parts box" and pulled out when needed. For the most part there was no guarantee that the necks were used in first in, first out order so the serial number may have little to do with the date of completion. There are 1964 serial numbers on Starfire basses even though the bass was not introduced until 1965. There are some necks that were used two years after they were built.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
At least for Westerly electrics serial numbers were stamped on the necks.
The necks were then put into a "parts box" and pulled out when needed. For the most part there was no guarantee that the necks were used in first in, first out order so the serial number may have little to do with the date of completion. There are 1964 serial numbers on Starfire basses even though the bass was not introduced until 1965. There are some necks that were used two years after they were built.
OK I'm confused, did we lose a transitional phrase?
I admit I don't know exactly when Westerly electrics got stamped, but the example of anachronistic s/n's sequence is from Hoboken build era...and I don't think they were still doing it that way in Westerly.
I don't recall ever seeing an "out of date order" s/n ascribed to the electric re-issues from the '90's.
(With the caveat that "don't recall" is the universal exculpatory phrase for everyone these days.
:biggrin-new:)
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
OK I'm confused, did we lose a transitional phrase?
I admit I don't know exactly when Westerly electrics got stamped, but the example of anachronistic s/n's sequence is from Hoboken build era...and I don't think they were still doing it that way in Westerly.
I don't recall ever seeing an "out of date order" s/n ascribed to the electric re-issues from the '90's.
(With the caveat that "don't recall" is the universal exculpatory phrase for everyone these days.
:biggrin-new:)

I thought it was Westerly but every time I retell this I get something wrong and either Hans has to refer me to his original or someone else beats him too it. But I am 99.44% certain there was a guitar discussed because it had a 60's serial number but the specs and accoutrements of the '70's version of that model. So unless the .36% is the working part of my memory, the neck was Hoboken or Westerly and the finished instrument was Westerly.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I thought it was Westerly but every time I retell this I get something wrong and either Hans has to refer me to his original or someone else beats him too it. But I am 99.44% certain there was a guitar discussed because it had a 60's serial number but the specs and accoutrements of the '70's version of that model. So unless the .36% is the working part of my memory, the neck was Hoboken or Westerly and the finished instrument was Westerly.

y'know, I'd believe they continued some Hoboken methodology for at least a while in Westerly, and that second example would seem to support that.
I got a suspicion that Fender tightened things up for the reissue electrics, though.
So maybe the real question isn't "how" they did things in Westerly but "when".
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Well, I stand corrected. I went looking for one of the posts where Hans corrected me. I haven't found it yet because my search-fu isn't working. But I did find a post in this thread where I say

Hans Moust has rather patiently explained to me that during the '60's Guild produced instruments in batches and it is not guaranteed that a lower serial number left the factory first.

That strongly suggests to me that Hoboken was the factory referred to and not Westerly. The guitar example makes a lot of sense if they were Hoboken necks moved to Westerly and then misplaced for a couple years.

I'm going to stop counting how many times I am wrong in a post. I think I have already reached my quota for 2018.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Well, I stand corrected. I went looking for one of the posts where Hans corrected me. I haven't found it yet because my search-fu isn't working. But I did find a post in this thread where I say

"Hans Moust has rather patiently explained to me that during the '60's Guild produced instruments in batches and it is not guaranteed that a lower serial number left the factory first."
I don't think that changed much during the first few years (if ever) of Westerly, either, and I recall a more specific reference to building whole batches in order to service an order for maybe a few guitars, and then putting the completed "white" bodies in racks until following orders came though. THAT was when no particular attention was paid to which s/n came off the rack, as well as a cause of anachronistic hardware installation, and I have that associated with Westerly methods in my memory.
And it doesn't actually refute your memory of how necks were handled specifically (unless you yourself are sure of your own error), yet, and in fact after some percolation time that description does ring a vague bell, and I think it may have been specifically in reference to solid body necks?
I think the "batch production being one reason for out-of-sequence s/n dates" has come up more than once.
There's also the obscure issue of Guild accidentally re-using some s/n's but I can't remember when, exactly.
Just that it was during Westerly and I think they were Hoboken s/n's.
Think Mavuser mentioned that one a while back, when I expressed doubt that the same s/n would appear on 2 different instruments of disparate age.

That strongly suggests to me that Hoboken was the factory referred to and not Westerly. The guitar example makes a lot of sense if they were Hoboken necks moved to Westerly and then misplaced for a couple years.
Yes. Or that they simply kept doing what they did before and the necks weren't even misplaced..
I'm going to stop counting how many times I am wrong in a post. I think I have already reached my quota for 2018.
If you're not careful you'll catch up to me.
:glee:
But I still think that Fender probably changed "the system" a bit when they revived the electrics and one result was no more anachronistsic s/n's, whether intended that way or not..
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
There's also the obscure issue of Guild accidentally re-using some s/n's but I can't remember when, exactly.

BA-1260 (1967) appeared on both a SF I and SF II. Hans confirmed it was a duplicate and not a I -> II conversion and, IIRC noted he had a couple other examples.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
BA-1260 (1967) appeared on both a SF I and SF II. Hans confirmed it was a duplicate and not a I -> II conversion and, IIRC noted he had a couple other examples.
I think that's a different situation than the one I'm recalling; if they were same-year instruments.
I think the they re-used part of a whole sequence, under Fender?
(In fact as I think about it, was it due to the notorious incomplete records issue in the first place?)
 
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I have a Starfire IV exactly like your friend's, except for the pickups. Same gorgeous natural flamed maple. I had the same problem trying to date it. The serial number is AG001291, so it's just a little later than yours. Going by the last serial produced in 1997 (AG000937) in the Guild charts, I have just assumed that mine was produced in 1998. This seems reasonable since it's only 354 numbers later. Can't find any information anywhere to confirm or refute my estimate, so I'll stick with it until someone pops my bubble. :)
 
Top