1958 M-65 Cherry Finish

Vermonter

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Great pic! So do you think they repainted the headstock too? I’m just going to leave it like it is, for now at least, maybe forever. Same with the tuners. They’re not original but they work ok. I may upgrade them down the road. Right now I’m just marvelling at how much the qualty of play improved with the refret and bridge tweaking. I’ll post pics of the bridge so you can see what he did. Pretty clever guy.
 

SFIV1967

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So do you think they repainted the headstock too?
It's hard to answer for me as I never saw how it looks when all black color flaked away or was removed, but it may have been re-pained with some brown color as that is not bare wood I see in your picture.

By the way, when others talked about the veneer that they thought the guitar had, look at the second picture from a second half 60ies Guild what happens to the Celluloid veneer in worst case! That's not the case for your guitar however.

93ae37d1-4a9a-4f29-b060-c1ef4aedf62f.jpeg
img_0468-jpg.88459


Ralf
 
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I recently picked up a 1958 full scale M-65 Freshman and I have a couple questions. First... how unusual is the cherry finish? I haven’t seen any. It seems these are usually sunburst. Second, is there an issue with what they used on the headstocks? There is no badge or logo, and the paint looks far more worn than the body. A local luthier told me they sometimes had a covering on the headstock that would deteriorate, and people would eventually remove it. This looks all original except the tuners.

I have my fathers 1958 Guild M-65 "Cherry" he used to play in jazz and swing bands in the 50's and early 60's.

First off, it is NOT a "full scale" guitar, it's 3/4 scale, measure it.
Second, the Cherry stain and lacquer finish was the most common, natural was second. The 50's Sunburst ones you've seen are the M-75 "Aristocrat" models. Sunburst was not added to the M-65 line until the middle of the 60's. Keith Richards had a Sunburst dual pickup M-65, but it was a 1965 or 66, the Franz pickups were gone by then too, Guild switching to DeArmand's. (hope that spelling is right)
Third, there was a logo, looks like someone sanded it off. The face of the headstocks were Black with the Guild logo in a gold inlaw, so yours is really "hosed" That really damages the vintage value, which is now $0. Zilch.
What that baloney "luthier" told is pure BS. There are thousands of late 50's and 60's Guild with the same heads stock style (paint and materials) and there is nothing wrong with them. Mine saw hundreds of hours in dank, damp, smokey, sometimes hot or cold Jazz and Swing clubs and it's head stock still looks new. A big BS on your "Luthier", tell him I said so.
Lately, those are NOT the original tuners, all the M-65's came with Nickel Plated tuner "buttons" and the Tuners were made by Grover and that ain't no Grover tuners.

For info, that may look like a Gibson "P-90" pickup, but Guild used exclusively Franz pickups until about 1962 or 63.

The amp with my "dads" 1958 M-65 is my 1961 Fender Blonde Tremolux "Piggy Back", 100% original
1956 Guild Cherry M-65.jpg



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I worked for Fender from 1972 - 1999 (Luthier, Production Supr, Product Mgr, Product Mgr Imports). Now I have a Luthier shop + Retail Sales.
 
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SFIV1967

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@VintageGuitarz : Welcome to LTG! Nice looking M-65 you have!
I have however doubts that your guitar is a 1958 model, as a lot of the features I see don't match the 50ies. In fact I can say with pretty high certainty that your guitar is not even from 59, I would say the earliest might be late 1960 or 1961. I don't want to argue with you but you can check the serial number on the label and headstock to see. 1958 would be until S/N 8300, 1959 would be until 12035, 1960 was 12036-14713 and 1961 14714 to 18419.

Sunburst was not added to the M-65 line until the middle of the 60's.

No, sunburst was common on M-65s in the 50ies and Cherry didn't exist in the 50ies.

1608337597071.png


Keith Richards had a Sunburst dual pickup M-65, but it was a 1965 or 66
The one from Keith was from the end of the 50ies or very early 60. It was a single pickup version. The two DeArmond pickups and the 3 additional knobs were added later on and Hans said he did not think it was a factory job.

1608338361379.png


Ralf
 
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mavuser

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I have my fathers 1958 Guild M-65 "Cherry" he used to play in jazz and swing bands in the 50's and early 60's.

First off, it is NOT a "full scale" guitar, it's 3/4 scale, ...The amp with my "dads" 1958 M-65 is my 1961 Fender Blonde Tremolux "Piggy Back", 100% original
1956 Guild Cherry M-65.jpg



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I worked for Fender from 1972 - 1999 (Luthier, Production Supr, Product Mgr, Product Mgr Imports). Now I have a Luthier shop + Retail Sales.

both the OP M-65 and your own M-65 are full scale (24.75" scale) guitars.
there is a 3/4 scale M-65, not pictured in this thread
 

mavuser

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Sorry bud, but it MEASURES 22 3/4" ..... that ain't Full scale!

no idea what you are MEASURING or how, or from where to where, bud.

but i will say your guitar has 22 frets with the neck mounted at the 16th, and a 3/4 M-65 has 20 frets with neck mounted at the 14th. i would post a pic here, of an actual 3/4 M-65, for your convience , but would rather u research it yourself, or watch u keep debating without researching it!

also as posted above, there is no way yours is from 1958, and sunburst was widely available during the period.

other than all of this u are right on target
 
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SFIV1967

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Below is a picture from Kurt of two 1969 versions, left the full size with 16th fret neck to body joint and 24 3/4" scale, right the 3/4 size with 14th fret neck to body joint and 22 2/3" scale. The full size models had always 22 frets. The pre-1965 3/4 models had only 19 frets, the post-1965 3/4 models 20 frets. I didn't have a picture showing two early 60ies models.


1608386966291.png


Ralf
 

hansmoust

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I have my fathers 1958 Guild M-65 "Cherry" he used to play in jazz and swing bands in the 50's and early 60's.


The amp with my "dads" 1958 M-65 is my 1961 Fender Blonde Tremolux "Piggy Back", 100% original
1956 Guild Cherry M-65.jpg



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I worked for Fender from 1972 - 1999 (Luthier, Production Supr, Product Mgr, Product Mgr Imports). Now I have a Luthier shop + Retail Sales.

Hello VintageGuitarz,

Welcome! The guitar that is pictured in your photo is an M-65 (C,Ch or Cherry) with a serial number that is most likely in the #17000-19000 range, which would make it an instrument from 1961 at the earliest. Go ahead and show us a detail shot of the back of the headstock and I may even be able to give you the exact day that your guitar was completed in 'final assembly'.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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Vermonter

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Wow... I don’t log on to LTG for a month or so and my old ‘58 Freshman thread sort of blew up. Cool!

I’d go point by point, but others have addressed quite a few of your “questions” already, and I thank them all quite enthusiastically for that. And some of the things you wrote about were also addressed during the year or so before you happened upon my old post.

First, the luthier in question is a very good luthier. His name is Dave and he works here in Vermont. I can give you his phone number and you can give him a call... chat about old archtops with him. He’s worked on a lot of them... rebuilt a lot of them. He’s very knowledgable, especially about old Epiphones. You can tell him the “baloney... big BS” stuff yourself.

The serial number here is 8213. That dates this beautiful guitar as a ‘58... probably. It’s near the end of the ‘58 run, according to the Guild website, which puts the last ‘58 serial number at 8300 (as stated above by another LTGer). It also has a ghost label which, according to Hans’ indispensable Guild Guitar Book, was introduced in ‘59 and used through ‘60. So mine COULD be a ‘59, but I don’t think so. The serial number says ‘58. Kind of a tweener. Perhaps Hans will tell us exactly when my guitar was built. He most certainly knows. Does your guitar have a similar serial number? Does it have a silhouette, ghost, or oval label? Hans can most definitely tell you when your guitar was built if you provide the requested serial number.

Everything I’ve read and heard here and on other websites tells me cherry was very rare, or even nonexistent, in ‘58, and although my original feeling was this is the original paint, I trust Dave’s judgement that the overspray he found is evidence of a repaint. Therefore, because of these two factors, I don’t believe this is original paint, and I do believe it was repainted a very long time ago. I suppose Dave could be wrong, and if he is, that would make him both wrong about the paint on this guitar AND a very competent, honest, and talented luthier, because those facts can all exist in the same world at the same time.

I believe the following: The tuners are non-original, as stated in the original post. That was obvious from the get go. The pickup is original. The knobs, bridge, and pickguard are original. I’ve heard from several folks here (all of whom are far more knowledgable than me) about the headstock and I’ve concluded the most likely headstock scenario is that the heatstock was originally painted black with a gold script - painted on - Guild logo that probably started peeling and was eventually refinished. Perhaps someone randomly sanded the original logo off, or inexplicably thought it would look better with a matching paint when they repainted the body. But honestly, the headstock paint doesn’t match the body very well... so it remains kind of a mystery. I also had this guitar refretted and some binding work done. Bindings shrink on these so there was a little gap to fill.

I’ve never seen anyone come on this website and inform another Guild collector their guitar was worth $0 and/or “zilch.” You did both. That’s an interesting, and highly inaccurate, take. A pristine example of a ‘58 M-65 would obviously fetch a better price, but vintage guitars often have a checkered history... through no fault of their own. And the M-65 was an entry level guitar to begin with, so it doesn’t fetch premium prices anyways. But the pedigree you list as your signature tells me you already know all of this, making the “zero-zilch” thing a bit of a conundrum. I’m sure I’d have no trouble getting a fair amount of money for this guitar from many Guild guitar collectors reading this post right now. But that won’t happen because I’d never sell this guitar. It’s family now.

Your ‘61 Tremolux seems like a nice amp. I’ve heard good things about them.
 
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walrus

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Vermonter, great post - very "measured" given the post you are replying to! I agree you could sell that guitar easily - it's a birth year for me! But I'm glad you consider it "family", it is a really cool guitar - enjoy it!

walrus
 

Vermonter

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Vermonter, great post - very "measured" given the post you are replying to! I agree you could sell that guitar easily - it's a birth year for me! But I'm glad you consider it "family", it is a really cool guitar - enjoy it!

walrus

It is definitely a guitar that works its way into one’s heart. This little beauty has such a sweet, sweet soul.
 

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Fwiw, Hans wrote the Guild Guitar book and I have full confidence in his ability to look in his database and tell you the exact date when your guitar was completed.
 

Vermonter

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As long as this thread opened up again, here’s a picture of the revamped bridge I said I’d post but never did... along with a few others. First, you can see how Dave thinned out the bridge to get better action, then beefed it up on the bottom with another piece of rosewood/mahogany... whatever it is... rosewood I think. I don’t remember noticing before that there is a wood veneer on the front of the headstock. I took a couple shots of that too. And of course I couldn’t resist showing off the ghost label again... he looks so happy.
 

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fronobulax

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@Vermonter: I don't think there was ever a question that your guitar is not from 1958.

Ralf

On the contrary there were two or three posts that suggested 1958 was too early for a cherry factory finish. Those have little relevance since it is established that the OPs guitar was refinished.
 
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