Final thought on Solid Body - For Now

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
fronobulax: Delete or lock this as you see fit. Not trying to stir the pot -- just wanted to add one thing, because I think it might be constructive....

I picked up my 2 acoustics from Stuart Day today. Since he is a bona fide Luthier, and since he builds all type of guitars, I decided to ask him his opinion on the "does wood affect tone" question.

First I told him about the the thread here, and he was amused. He said: "Man, when it comes to guitar tone, guitarists are more religious than anyone in your church. You should know that. I never get into discussions about tone if I can help it."

But I asked him to explain it to me, because I wanted to understand it. The hypothetical was two identical model guitars, with humbucker pickups. The only difference was the body's wood. Does the wood affect the tone? And if so, how is that possible, since the pickup only gets the sound from the strings?

He said: "OK, so, scientifically speaking, you are right. The pickup cannot get anything from the wood. Only the strings. That's how they work. Unless you believe in magic, a humbucker cannot be picking up anything from the wood. So that part of it is right. What you are missing though is that the humbucker picks up all of the vibrations of a string. A string does not vibrate just up and down, it also vibrates in and out. Basically, it vibrates in a 360 degree pattern. Anything that affects any of those vibrations will affect the way the string moves, and by extension, the guitar's tone. Since wood vibrates, and different wood vibrates differently, it will affect the string differently, and it will change the tone of the guitar."

OK, I said. But we are talking theoretical here. Sure, the tone changes. My real question is: Can the average ear tell the difference?

He said, "It depends on the wood differences. There are a lot of very similar woods, and they probably wouldn't make enough of a difference for the average ear to notice. But, if the two woods in question were Ash and Mahogany, the difference is great enough that the average ear would almost definitely be able to pick out the difference in an A/B test. And even if it weren't a direct A/B test, but you knew the sound of one of them really well, you would be able to tell if a switch was made. So, if your lead guitarist usually played an Ash guitar, and then you guys took a break and he secretly switched to a mahogany, when you guys started back up again, you'd probably notice something was different in the sound."

So then I asked: OK, that makes sense. Now what if it isn't a simple clean guitar, plugged into an amp? What if it ran through a pedal board, with some things like reverb, delay, or some dirt...

And I was halfway through that question when he just smiled and shook his head as in: "Yeah, I'm not answering that one..."

But that's OK, because I think I got my answer and it's good enough for now.

So, FWIW, that's what the luthier said.
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,583
Reaction score
17,802
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Which seems a lot like what we said. :wink-new:
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Which seems a lot like what we said. :wink-new:

Yeah, although I would dispute "The pickup cannot get anything from the wood. Only the strings." from personal experience with a single coil pickup in a solid body bass. But I won't repeat that :)
 

FNG

Enlightened Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
5,961
Reaction score
1,516
Location
Planet Earth
Guild Total
596
In before the lock!

I would propose that most older electric guitar players suffer from significant hearing loss. With all the variables in the guitar sound chain, any impact from the wood would not be apparent.
 

F312

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
958
The tone is in your fingers.

Ralph
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,583
Reaction score
17,802
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Yeah, although I would dispute "The pickup cannot get anything from the wood. Only the strings." from personal experience with a single coil pickup in a solid body bass. But I won't repeat that :)

From a physics standpoint the statement has merit. A guitar pickup is an inductor that induces voltage based on the disruption of its magnetic field. Wood has no bearing on a magnetic field (just like nylon strings). As stated in the OP (and in my previous posts) the wood will affect the way the strings vibrate and *that* will affect the tone. Thus, the wood type has an indirect (but audible) effect on the tone when the guitar is played through the pickup.
 

DThomasC

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
187
Location
Finger Lakes, New York, USA
It's true, the pickup detects changes in the magnetic field going through the coils and that's all. But, that condition could be met by a stationary coil with a changing field (due to vibrating strings), by a stationary field with a moving coil, or a combination of the two. In simpler terms, the signal electrical signal that comes out of the pickup is due to the strings and pickup moving relative to each other. Either or both can be moving and a signal will result.

If I touch the body of a guitar near the pickups I can fell it vibrating with the strings. It's not much, for sure the amount of motion is much less the amount of motion of the strings, but does that mean that it's insignificant? Are we sure that the part of the signal generated by the vibrating pickup is imperceptible when combined with the part of the signal from the moving string? Are you sure?

I have access to tools that can measure precisely the amplitude (and shape) of the motion of a pickup all the way down to the nanometer level. But, every time I've given serious thought to making the measurements I've felt that it was only in an effort to convert some non-believers. And then I think to myself, why bother?
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
It's true, the pickup detects changes in the magnetic field going through the coils and that's all. But, that condition could be met by a stationary coil with a changing field (due to vibrating strings), by a stationary field with a moving coil, or a combination of the two .
In simpler terms, the signal electrical signal that comes out of the pickup is due to the strings and pickup moving relative to each other.
Either or both can be moving and a signal will result.

If I touch the body of a guitar near the pickups I can fell it vibrating with the strings. It's not much, for sure the amount of motion is much less the amount of motion of the strings, but does that mean that it's insignificant? Are we sure that the part of the signal generated by the vibrating pickup is imperceptible when combined with the part of the signal from the moving string? Are you sure?

I have access to tools that can measure precisely the amplitude (and shape) of the motion of a pickup all the way down to the nanometer level. But, every time I've given serious thought to making the measurements I've felt that it was only in an effort to convert some non-believers. And then I think to myself, why bother?

THAT is exactly what occurred to me as I was thinking about why a "solid-body's" wood could affect tone, especially when being played near its speaker cab.
It's what I was getting at when I mentioned the relationship of inductance to mechanical movement in the original thread.
BY being mechanically connected to the body, the pickup poles themselves are being vibrated by any vibration that occurs in the body.
Which doesn't negate GAD's mention of the wood's vibration affecting how the strings move, either.
Its all those variables taken together that produce a sum that may well be "greater than the whole".
:friendly_wink:
 
Last edited:

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
BY being mechanically connected to the body, the pickup poles themselves are being vibrated by any vibration that occurs in the body.

I'm going with that because it explains what I have observed without anybody having to be Wrong, including me :)
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,583
Reaction score
17,802
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
One of the reasons this argument persists for decades is because the principles appear to be quite simple but they are not.
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,326
Reaction score
6,499
Guild Total
2
yeah, every now and again, maybe once a year, i think of looking for a Guild electric. but it is just a passing thought. the neck on the Br is a real slim 1 and 11/16 and plays easier than most electrics. and the whole plugging chord into an amp effort just seems like a hassle.
 

PittPastor

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
756
Reaction score
59
Location
Western Pennsylvania
yeah, every now and again, maybe once a year, i think of looking for a Guild electric. but it is just a passing thought. the neck on the Br is a real slim 1 and 11/16 and plays easier than most electrics. and the whole plugging chord into an amp effort just seems like a hassle.

It's funny you should say that. My Savoy is supposed to have a 1 11/16" neck and it seems a lot slimmer than my D40C for some reason...
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
Hello

It just happened about one hour ago - I was looking for something in my not-so-well-organized-workspace when I came across a pick-up with cable and plug. I remembered this thread and connected it into an active speaker input. No guitar or anything around it - and I could clearly hear the sound, that my fingers were producing. A bit similar than handling noice on vocal mic.
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,326
Reaction score
6,499
Guild Total
2
Hello

It just happened about one hour ago - I was looking for something in my not-so-well-organized-workspace when I came across a pick-up with cable and plug. I remembered this thread and connected it into an active speaker input. No guitar or anything around it - and I could clearly hear the sound, that my fingers were producing. A bit similar than handling noice on vocal mic.

yeah. when i was playing thru a PA once a week, before plugging in to jack, that metal end thingy is quite alive.
 

F312

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
2,760
Reaction score
958
yeah, every now and again, maybe once a year, i think of looking for a Guild electric. but it is just a passing thought. the neck on the Br is a real slim 1 and 11/16 and plays easier than most electrics. and the whole plugging chord into an amp effort just seems like a hassle.

Yeah Wood, you need an electric. I'm sure someone here has one/some they're not using and can part with. Those 80s models are a real bargain, IMHO.

Ralph
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,326
Reaction score
6,499
Guild Total
2
Yeah Wood, you need an electric. I'm sure someone here has one/some they're not using and can part with. Those 80s models are a real bargain, IMHO.

Ralph

i know it is just a matter of time Ralph :)
 

Nuuska

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2016
Messages
7,668
Reaction score
6,028
Location
Finland
Guild Total
9
yeah. when i was playing thru a PA once a week, before plugging in to jack, that metal end thingy is quite alive.


Hello

I am not sure if I understand you correctly - I think you are referring to open cable end buzz - but here goes - I did not mean the usual free cable producing hum - even louder when you touch it - in my case it was a guitar PU with fixed cable and other end plugged in - so as normal playing situation - only without strings and wood ( not you ) - and still there was handling noice.
 
Top