How to tell between Brazilian and Indian Rosewood?

chazmo · Aug 25, 2018

mavuser said:
I believe this is Brazillian Rosewood based only on the visual evidence of this photo and nothing else:

does anyone agree or disagree?

mav, stirring the pot?

So, I'll play. I disagree...

Not that I doubt it's Brazilian, but based on visual cues? I may be missing something, but I don't see any green streaks, which is inconclusive anyway. I do see dark grain pattern "blotches" (for want of a better word) and some "stair-stepping" on the outer edge of the lower bout that are typical with Brazilian but again inconclusive.

Is this an F-50R, F-47R, or F-30R, mav? If you know the year is '69 or earlier, then it probably *is* Brazilian.

And, all that said, this is academic. That is a beautiful piece of rosewood and I'll bet that instrument is wonderful and well aged.

guitarjesus · Aug 25, 2018

chazmo said:
mav, stirring the pot?

So, I'll play. I disagree... Not that I doubt it's Brazilian, but based on visual cues? I may be missing something, but I don't see any green streaks, which is inconclusive anyway. I do see dark grain pattern "blotches" (for want of a better word) and some "stair-stepping" on the outer edge of the lower bout that are typical with Brazilian but again inconclusive.

Is this an F-50R, F-47R, or F-30R, mav? If you know the year is '69 or earlier, then it probably *is* Brazilian.

And, all that said, this is academic. That is a beautiful piece of rosewood and I'll bet that instrument is wonderful and well aged.

From what I know, the only "real" way to know for sure is the end grain under microscope and looking at the porosity of the wood. EIR has a lot more pores over the same amount of wood than Brazilian.

F312 · Aug 25, 2018

I once sold a 73-74 Guild D50 at the Guitar Show in Arlington back about 20 years ago that I thought was Brazilian, (I mean really). it was not in the best of shape, but not bad, a couple of thin two-inch splits on top, not going to the ends. The guy kept looking at the back mesmerized, but I didn't say a word about it, and neither did he. I probably got a few hundred more for it just because of the way it looked, who knows, I do know he was happy.

Ralph

mavuser · Aug 25, 2018

not stirring any pot. still prefer the old fashioned method, just roll it up and fire away. only then can one truly ponder the difference between Brazillian rw and Indian rw

Rayk · Aug 25, 2018

mavuser said:
I believe this is Brazillian Rosewood based only on the visual evidence of this photo and nothing else:

does anyone agree or disagree?

I’ll play , Agree if it’s not stained and your not throwing in a third party wood lol

Bottom line I’d take that wood anytime as I just love the knotty spots !

AcornHouse · Aug 25, 2018

And, btw, there is still plenty of Braz. RW out there, just not by production standards; I.e. it’s there for small builders. Both crazy stump grain, and straighter gran. It is, of course, hugely expensive, especially for the size of dreads. (Smaller stuff is more affordable. I just got a few Braz. RW bridge blanks.)

guitarjesus · Aug 25, 2018

AcornHouse said:
And, btw, there is still plenty of Braz. RW out there, just not by production standards; I.e. it’s there for small builders. Both crazy stump grain, and straighter gran. It is, of course, hugely expensive, especially for the size of dreads. (Smaller stuff is more affordable. I just got a few Braz. RW bridge blanks.)

Serious, the prices on fleabay for Brazilian back and sides? Easily over $600.

AcornHouse · Aug 25, 2018

guitarjesus said:
Serious, the prices on fleabay for Brazilian back and sides? Easily over $600.

That’s cheap; and I wouldn’t trust any of the stuff on eBay. A known tonewood dealer is going to be looking for $1000 on up, depending on quality. The trick is finding good quartersawn stock. There’s a lot of flatsawn stuff that’s not real good for guitars.

6L6 · Aug 26, 2018

Take a good sniff from the sound hole. Braz smells a lot like chocolate.

drc · Aug 26, 2018

At the end of the day, you can’t! Period

Punkybub · Aug 26, 2018

I agree with all who say it's impossible to tell by sight alone, with 100% accuracy.

Listening to the guitar will give a huge clue - crystalline highs, huge and clear low end, quick attack, not much midrange (unless there's an adi top), long clear sustain are all what sounds like Bazillion Rosewood to me. I don't think Guild had any hard cut-off date for using it either.

Remember - in the early/mid '70s the difference was not that much price-wise. For the guitar companies who made models w/different rosewoods, the upcharge might be $100 or so, and I remember many people dissing the difference in sound between EIR and BRW when the restrictions came around.

I've got a D50 from '74 w/crazy cracks in the sanded-down top, bridge pins barely fit in the huge holes in the amateur-made replaced bridge (which I suspect is epoxy-glued), all on a guitar that was stamped "02" in red on the label. There's a 3" crack on the bottom of the back - on top of the back strip reinforcement, so no cleats needed/able to be used - which is likely why the "02" designation. BRW has a rep for cracking in odd places sometimes from what I've read...

Looks like it went through the washing machine but it's got a very BRW-type sound to my ear and is one of my favorite guitars. Nobody would give it a second look of course - fine by me!

I love acoustic guitars!

Rayk · Aug 26, 2018

guitarjesus said:
Serious, the prices on fleabay for Brazilian back and sides? Easily over $600.

I paid that for my lucky strike redwood top if I can get Brazilian for that I’m in .

Rayk · Aug 26, 2018

Punkybub said:
I agree with all who say it's impossible to tell by sight alone, with 100% accuracy.

Listening to the guitar will give a huge clue - crystalline highs, huge and clear low end, quick attack, not much midrange (unless there's an adi top), long clear sustain are all what sounds like Bazillion Rosewood to me. I don't think Guild had any hard cut-off date for using it either.

Remember - in the early/mid '70s the difference was not that much price-wise. For the guitar companies who made models w/different rosewoods, the upcharge might be $100 or so, and I remember many people dissing the difference in sound between EIR and BRW when the restrictions came around.

I've got a D50 from '74 w/crazy cracks in the sanded-down top, bridge pins barely fit in the huge holes in the amateur-made replaced bridge (which I suspect is epoxy-glued), all on a guitar that was stamped "02" in red on the label. There's a 3" crack on the bottom of the back - on top of the back strip reinforcement, so no cleats needed/able to be used - which is likely why the "02" designation. BRW has a rep for cracking in odd places sometimes from what I've read...

Looks like it went through the washing machine but it's got a very BRW-type sound to my ear and is one of my favorite guitars. Nobody would give it a second look of course - fine by me!

I love acoustic guitars!

Ahh crack wood , also a trait of zericote ,so many crack issues . I would say mostly because of not knowing about the humidity factor from the start .
But I’d have to say in most cases unknowledgeable buyers would not know about that in the past and so the legend persists .

Neal · Aug 26, 2018

chazmo said:
mav, stirring the pot?

So, I'll play. I disagree... Not that I doubt it's Brazilian, but based on visual cues? I may be missing something, but I don't see any green streaks, which is inconclusive anyway. I do see dark grain pattern "blotches" (for want of a better word) and some "stair-stepping" on the outer edge of the lower bout that are typical with Brazilian but again inconclusive.

Is this an F-50R, F-47R, or F-30R, mav? If you know the year is '69 or earlier, then it probably *is* Brazilian.

And, all that said, this is academic. That is a beautiful piece of rosewood and I'll bet that instrument is wonderful and well aged.

I dunno, Chaz. I have never seen EIR with that much character. It is usually so straight-grained.

adorshki · Aug 27, 2018

guitarjesus said:
From what I know, the only "real" way to know for sure is the end grain under microscope and looking at the porosity of the wood. EIR has a lot more pores over the same amount of wood than Brazilian.

Yeah I saw that a while ago, but I thought it was the other way 'round, Braz had higher pore count?
My memory ain't what it used to be, though.

Neal said:
I dunno, Chaz. I have never seen EIR with that much character. It is usually so straight-grained.

I gotta agree with that one, the "scalloping" effect.
Maybe a stumpwood effect?

bobouz · Aug 27, 2018

It's EIR that has the much higher pore count. Otherwise, most descriptors are generalizations that don't always hold true.

One I've read about is that BR leans towards reddish hues, while EIR tends to be more brown in appearance. But even with that said, I have rosewood on assorted instruments with a lovely reddish hue (as in the OP's example), which almost certainly are EIR (based on year of manufacture).

It's a rather slippery rosewood slope!

adorshki · Aug 27, 2018

bobouz said:
It's EIR that has the much higher pore count.

THANKS I'll try to remember that!

bobouz said:
Otherwise, most descriptors are generalizations that don't always hold true.

Exactly.
Some visual clues may only be found in Brazilian but since they're not ALWAYS found you're back to square one if you've got an example from that transitional time period.

mavuser · Aug 27, 2018

here is the same photo under iphone’s “vivid.”

I feel like Neal got a good look at it. look at how tight the grain is. it almost looks like spruce. some of the grain lines just vanish towards the knots. and there are sedimentary layers of the grain that form “ribbons.” I've seen those 70s D-50s and G-312s with the stumpwood/hourglass effect, so im not talking about the curvature of the grain lines, which does look super cool no matter what the country of origin. also this photo better shows there are no obvious areas of pores on this one. yes i know the year of the guitar, but we are just looking at the photo for now. just seems Brazillian RW cannot be valued so much higher than EIRW if no body can tell the difference without microscopes and lab samples. also i do concede, this is a pretty bad photo. this one needs a few things before it rides again, so this is the best we have, for now.

guitarjesus · Aug 27, 2018

adorshki said:
Yeah I saw that a while ago, but I thought it was the other way 'round, Braz had higher pore count?
My memory ain't what it used to be, though.

No, EIR is more porous. It weighs the same as Brazilian per square foot, which leads me to believe itself slightly more dense if it weighs the same while being more porous. Might lead to the slight sonic differences.

adorshki · Aug 27, 2018

guitarjesus said:
No, EIR is more porous. It weighs the same as Brazilian per square foot, which leads me to believe itself slightly more dense if it weighs the same while being more porous. Might lead to the slight sonic differences.

'At's what occurred to me first time I read about it.

mavuser said:
also this photo better shows there are no obvious areas of pores on this one.

No, you won't see 'em from that plane.
THE pores are only visible from a cross-section, or the edge end of a slab, not the side showing visible grain.
Here's the link that explains it, just didn't have time to search for it until now:
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-...osewood-from-east-indian-and-other-rosewoods/
Brazilian:

EIR:

Hope that clarifies it.
:friendly_wink:

How to tell between Brazilian and Indian Rosewood?

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