Starfire IV neck wood. Maple,Mahogany

DThomasC

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I'm getting an attitude I don't like but I cannot tell whether that was intended or it is something I am making up as I read. Aren't text only communications wonderful for conveying emotion? Just an observation and a note that perhaps I am not self-moderating as well as I should.

My friend, I meant the entire post in good spirit and questionable humor. If that didn't come through it's entirely my fault and I offer my apologizes. I don't like emoticons :grumpy: but I will make an effort to insert them as needed. :eagerness:

To be honest, I don't think most guitar players understand the influence that the neck has on tone. I have a suspicion that the snappy tone that some musicians attribute to a 25.5" scale is really due to the fact that most solidbodies with 25.5" scales have maple necks as they're Fender derivatives.

In fact, a part of the difference between the classic Fender and Gibson tones might have to do with the neck material without the musicians even being aware of it, but that's just my thought. Obviously, pickups have a lot to do with it, but a SSH Strat in the bridge position doesn't sound or respond like an SG. Again, many guitarists attribute the difference to the extra 3/4" in scale length, but I don't buy it. I have a Gibson "The Hawk" which is all mahogany with Gibson humbuckers and a 25.5" scale. To me it sounds and feels like an LP Special with humbuckers - and goofy body shape.
 

GAD

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I think scale length does have an influence. It’s just one of many things that do. I currently own no guitars with maple fretboards because I don’t like they way they look or feel, but I do have many long scale guitars because I like the way they look, sound and play. I love the way a maple long scake guitar sounds with gain, though.

The whole guitar is a complex interaction of factors. Where we get into trouble is trying to isolate one thing and analyzing it.
 

GAD

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Whoa - one of these posts was my 7000th. What a waste. :emmersed:
 

adorshki

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Suppose we have an amazing neck that happens to be one piece. Now, suppose I go back in time to when it was just a hunk of wood cut from a tree and I rip it down the middle, flip half around, and glue it back together. Then I make a neck out of it just like the first neck. Obviously, this time it's two pieces instead of one, but otherwise the same.
Would people expect that:

a) the neck would still sound exactly the same
b) the awesomeness that the neck had would be completely gone
c) probably the neck wouldn't be changed much, but we can't rule out the possibility that it might change a little bit, maybe imperceptibly, maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.
d) none of the above.
I'm going with "C", because I think wood density is the critical factor, but I suspect when you put a glued surface in the middle of it something changes in the resonant frequency of the neck. Each half sets up its own internal resonant frequency and the glue joint becomes another plane where the frequencies can "bounce off" each other (and also intermodualte with the frequency of the top as a whole).
Does it affect tone audibly? Can't say, but it's measurable.
Same principle is behind the debate over glue-on vs bolt-on necks, especially in acoustic flattops.
And why laminated tops tend to retard feedback.
Instead of cutting the piece of wood into two pieces, let's cut it into 17 pieces. No, wait, 1700 pieces!
You used to work at Martin, didn'tcha?
325161496af007db4e66d269e9243c48ab4c4362.jpg


Never mind. Forget that question and consider this one instead: Suppose I presented you with two neck. They're essentially identical except that one is made from one piece of wood while the other is multiple pieces. The question is this: which neck would you guess is most likely to be awesome?
NO question about it.
The Martin.
Martins are awesome period.
The truth is, none of us can answer any of those questions with authority because nobody on earth has the necessary experience. All we have is our intuition along with some anecdotes that support our intuition (we never paid attention to the anecdotes that are counter to our intuition.)
Not necessarily true. And any good lawyer only presents the anecdotes that support his case.

So don't bother emailing me your answers to my questions. They're just your worthless intuition and I already have my own.
Ok that does come across a little snarky but maybe it's intended as deadpan over-the-top humor such as I'm frequently guilty of myself.*****
IN any case, all we gotta do is bolt a stratabond neck onto your Tele. Then repeat except glue it this time.
EDIT: one of the most remarkable guitars that I own is a Tele with a one piece neck. Rings like a bell and sustains like a piano.
See my observation re solid neck vs cut in half and glued, above.
Analogous question:
If you cut a bell in half and then weld it back together, does it sound the same?
How about the Liberty Bell?.
Interesting observations about materials in that essay.

****Whoopsie, guilty of posting before reading all posts again, just saw your confirmation to Frono in post 25.
:friendly_wink:
PS emoticons really do help.
 
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adorshki

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I'd say it's not so much a separate fretboard as the neck being made from two pieces so that the truss rod could be placed without drilling, though that could be semantics I suppose. If I were to call the top the fretboard, then it's probably a half-inch thick.
Thank you!
Bottom line is it's definitely not "solid" and I agree it's probably to do with how they wanted to install the truss.
But wow, 1/2" thick?
Maybe it was as close to solid as they could get?
... I suppose I should be careful lest I rekindle Frono's glued wood discussion. :emmersed:

No worries, I tried to do that.
 
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Nuuska

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...
EDIT: one of the most remarkable guitars that I own is a Tele with a one piece neck. Rings like a bell and sustains like a piano.


Piano is usually made of very many pieces of wood that are glued together - so a guitar made of cazillion pieces of wood ( chipboard? MDF ?? ) with cast-iron frame might be the ultimate answer to our prayers. . . . .

EDIT - make the frame cast bronze as used in bells.

EDIT #2 - make the ebony fretboard inlays of ivory - more piano qualities
 

adorshki

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Piano is usually made of very many pieces of wood that are glued together - so a guitar made of cazillion pieces of wood ( chipboard? MDF ?? ) with cast-iron frame might be the ultimate answer to our prayers. . . . .
Understand the humorous intent....but I believe the soundboard is solid, no?
Or can it vary depending on the maker and intended quality?
 

Nuuska

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The soundboard is a bunch of solid pieces glued together plus reinforced with braces. Never heard of plywood or laminated soundboard. Violins, guitars and even upraight basses are small enough to be constructed of two pieces + bracing. Piano needs more pieces. On an upright it is clearly visible on backside.

Edit - on piano the soundboard is probably one of the easiest parts to produce - think of 88 keys each with 20-30 parts.

800px-Piano_action_-_Project_Gutenberg_eText_17571.jpg
 
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fronobulax

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My friend, I meant the entire post in good spirit and questionable humor.

We're good then. Sorry for the scare :)

I think scale length does have an influence.

Bass players have long, sometimes meaningful, discussions about the sonic differences between long (usually 34") and short (usually 30.5") scale basses.

The whole guitar is a complex interaction of factors. Where we get into trouble is trying to isolate one thing and analyzing it.

Which, in hindsight, has been a problem of mine for decades. I'll credit (or blame, your choice) you for changing that for me.

Whoa - one of these posts was my 7000th. What a waste. :emmersed:

Being divisible by a power of ten does not always make a number special but if it matters I'll ask you something based upon an oversimplification combined with a bad assumption or two and you can strive for 8,000 while straightening me out.

In other news, there is a part of me that is amused by what is essentially a solid body veer (although not completely) in the Archtops/Hollowbodies section.
 

adorshki

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The soundboard is a bunch of solid pieces glued together plus reinforced with braces. Never heard of plywood or laminated soundboard. Violins, guitars and even upraight basses are small enough to be constructed of two pieces + bracing. Piano needs more pieces. On an upright it is clearly visible on backside.

Edit - on piano the soundboard is probably one of the easiest parts to produce - think of 88 keys each with 20-30 parts.

800px-Piano_action_-_Project_Gutenberg_eText_17571.jpg

Your drawing skills have improved immensely!
:biggrin-new:
I did know about the 2 "plates" but I should have realized a "one-piece" plate was highly unlikely just due to size, especially in grand and concert grands,.
 

GAD

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Which, in hindsight, has been a problem of mine for decades. I'll credit (or blame, your choice) you for changing that for me.

Woohoo! I made a difference in the world!


Being divisible by a power of ten does not always make a number special but if it matters I'll ask you something based upon an oversimplification combined with a bad assumption or two and you can strive for 8,000 while straightening me out.

When people freak out about their 40th/50th/etc. birthdays I try to remind them that the number is meaningless and that if we'd been born with 12 fingers then 50 would really be what we know as 80. Usually only computer people get that, though. :tongue-new:











For the non-computer people among us, 0x50 (five-zero in hexadecimal) is the identifier of the fifth radix of a base-12 number system:

00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F (0-15 in decimal)
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 1A 1B 1C 1D 1E 1F (16-31 in decimal)
20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 2A 2B 2C 2D 2E 2F (32-47 in decimal)
30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 38 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F (48-63 in decimal)
40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 4A 4B 4C 4D 4E 4F (54-79 in decimal)
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 5A 5B 5C 5D 5E 5F (80-95 in decimal)

Radix is a fancy way of saying base as in base-10 or base-12 number system.


How's THAT for a veer? :emmersed:
 

Nuuska

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Woohoo! I made a difference in the world!


How's THAT for a veer? :emmersed:


Not too shabby - we have to work harder - AL? Are u reading? Any others ???
 

DThomasC

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I think scale length does have an influence. It’s just one of many things that do.

Sure it does, no question. But the difference between 24.75" and 25.5" is small, only about 3%. While that's not insignificant, my point is that I suspect a lot of guitarists ascribe more differences between guitars to that 3% difference than it actually deserves

DThomasC said:
So don't bother emailing me your answers to my questions. They're just your worthless intuition and I already have my own.
Ok that does come across a little snarky but maybe it's intended as deadpan over-the-top humor such as I'm frequently guilty of myself.*****

Yeah, just humor poorly delivered. I'd consider giving it up, but I have no self control.

Bass players have long, sometimes meaningful, discussions about the sonic differences between long (usually 34") and short (usually 30.5") scale basses.

Well, that's more than 10% difference. Do bass players generally find long scale instruments to be more "snappy" and "crisp" than short scale?

In other news, there is a part of me that is amused by what is essentially a solid body veer (although not completely) in the Archtops/Hollowbodies section.

Sort of a veer, but I think the discussion is relevant to archtops and flattops too. The idea of solidbodies came up in a semi-scientific effort to isolate variables, but I think we're talking about all kinds of guitars.

When people freak out about their 40th/50th/etc. birthdays I try to remind them that the number is meaningless and that if we'd been born with 12 fingers then 50 would really be what we know as 80. Usually only computer people get that, though. :tongue-new:

Don't get me started! If I were King one of the things I would do is make everyone switch to base 12 for everything. 12 is a very non-prime number, which means that it's divisible by many smaller numbers: 2, 3, 4, 6. What good is base 10? Not much good, that's my opinion.

As for having 10 fingers, anyone that thinks they're only good for counting to 10 has no imagination. I can count to 10000000000 in base 2 on my 10 fingers.
 

fronobulax

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Well, that's more than 10% difference. Do bass players generally find long scale instruments to be more "snappy" and "crisp" than short scale?

I hear the words "presence" and "authority" more often when talking long scales. The general sense is that there is something "good" that a long scale has "more" of. "snappy" and "crisp" might apply. If a Fender Precision is your desired tone, many people claim you can't get there with the same electronics and a shorter scale. I tend towards short scales because of lousy technique that makes the shorter scale easier and less painful to play. My Pilot is long scale but the electronics are so different there is no comparison. But there is a sound that if I want it is the Pilot or I don't get it.
 

GAD

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I happened to have been reading The Beauty of the Burst because I'm on a Les Paul kick and found a very cool section on how the neck of an electric guitar affects the tone. It's too long to type here, but if you happen to own a copy, it's on page 198 and is quite thorough. I looked on Google Books but those pages are not included.

Definitely a book worth buying for any electric guitar fan.
 

Nuuska

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As for having 10 fingers, anyone that thinks they're only good for counting to 10 has no imagination. I can count to 10000000000 in base 2 on my 10 fingers.


Da-Silvas-Share-the-genetic-mutation-for-six-fingers.jpg




Read about it here - https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/fourteen-members-same-family-12-6448609

There was a tv-program about "different" people once - in this family, when a baby was born, it was not half as important wether it was boy or girl, only really important question was "are there twelve fingers?"
 
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