Buying On The Internet

LAP57

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I have been reading the board off and on for many years. Having recently retired, I am actually finding the time to learn to play. I currently have a Guild JF4-NT and with my increased playing time I think may be aggravating a shoulder injury. I am currently working on changing my ergonomics which may help. I have found that playing my parlor guitar is easier on my shoulder although the sound is a little lacking after playing a jumbo. This has created an excuse to buy a dreadnought guitar which would be smaller then my jumbo and probably sound nearly as good. I have been looking at D50CE’s on line. As I am currently learning to play in DADGAD tuning the extra frets that can be used maybe helpful. My actual question is this, what are the pitfalls of buying sight unseen on the internet? What is the best process to use when dealing with a remote seller? Is it reasonable to ask for a video clip of someone playing the guitar and is the sound quality over a computer with good headphones good enough to evaluate the sound quality?

Thanks.
 
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AcornHouse

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Hey Larry, Welcome!
Have you tried out a dread with your shoulder? They may have a borrower lower bout, by a little, but they are still full depth, which may be more of a limiting factor.

Instead of trying to go as small as a parlor, what about an F-30? Not as deep, and narrower lower bout, with a nice full sound.
 

fronobulax

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Welcome.

Instead of trying to go as small as a parlor, what about an F-30? Not as deep, and narrower lower bout, with a nice full sound.

As far as ergonomics go, Mrs. Fro definitely prefers her F30 to her D25. It is much easier for her to play.
 

LAP57

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I do have a cheap dreadnought that I am practicing with to see if that helps. The dreadnought is both slightly narrower and shallower then my jumbo. It is slightly easier to reach the strings but time will tell if it is enough.
 

Mark WW

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dread vs Jumbo pretty similar in size just different shape. I recently bought an M-140 and it is quite small but a bit bigger than a parlor. It was beautifully put together just too light or thin sounding compared to my dreads. Maybe an OM-140 as well for consideration? Depends on your budget. Rocky at Street Sounds has one without a pickup brand new for $569.
 

PittPastor

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My actual question is this, what are the pitfalls of buying sight unseen on the internet? What is the best process to use when dealing with a remote seller? Is it reasonable to ask for a video clip of someone playing the guitar and is the sound quality over a computer with good headphones good enough to evaluate the sound quality?

I don't know where you live, but if you can, I'd look into a used Guild at Guitar Center.

That's how I bought my Savoy and I am really happy with the whole process. It was in Kansas City. I am in Pittsburgh. I bought it online, used my GC card, got interest free financing, and I had 30 days to return it. (Some equipment, especially vintage, is only 15 days, so you need to check with the store on the one you are considering.)

I've returned stuff to GC before -- and never got a hassle, so I felt good about what I was getting. Also, I called the GC in Kansas City and the guy I spoke with couldn't have been more helpful. I was calling to get the serial number, and he went and found the guitar, and called me back. He not only told me the serial number, he told me: "Dude, the paper guard under the floating bridge is still there. I doubt this guitar was played more than five or six times If you're looking for a solid Guild with low miles, brother this is your guitar!"

I bought it for a very fair price, and it was virtually brand new.

All of that, and if I didn't like it, I could have returned it and simply said: "I didn't love it," and they would have taken it back with no problems.

So, if ever I am on the fence, I will look on GC to see if I can get it there first. I don't abuse it. For example, there was an Artist Award in Ohio, and although I would love to play it, I know I can't get it (right now). So, I wouldn't do that to a store because it would just end up getting put in their inventory.

But if you are serious, it's a comfortable route to go. IMHO.

Good luck!
 

Br1ck

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Have you tried a mandolin? Seriously.

There is much to be said for this. I've played mandolin for two years now. I just had carpal tunnel surgery and started playing mandolin again, allbet gingerly, after just two weeks. Guitar is probably a month off. I had open heart surgery a while ago and was able to play mandolin off to the side after a couple of weeks too. Shoulder hurt? Tendonitis comes and goes, so I just switch instruments, plus they are different enough to spread the wear and tear around. Be advised they are not cheap.

Check out some 000 or OM sized guitars, and some 12 frets. I'm convinced I can play dreads today because my M 36 took less toal on my shoulder over the 25 years it was my main instrument.
 

ClydeTower

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Hi LAP,

Personally, I find a jumbo more comfortable to play than a dread because of the way the narrower waist sits in your lap. Otherwise, as others have said, I find my F30 to be the most comfortable, easiest playing guitar because of its size, weight and short scale. Plus its quite versatile for its size. I would consider something like that if I were in your shoes.

As far as buying online sight unseen, I've bought most of my guitars online because they're almost impossible to find otherwise in my area. I've had mostly good luck, but there is a certain risk for sure. You won't know for sure until you physically play the guitar. Assuming you're considering a per-owned guitar, if you want to minimize the risk:

- Buy from a seller that has a good online reputation with lots of positive feedback;
- Buy from a seller that has a good return policy if you decide to send it back;
- Talk to the seller over the phone to get a feel for the person. I'm always amazed at how much you can learn just be talking over the phone...
- Use a 3rd party site such as Reverb or even Ebay than can act as an intermediary or offer an escrow service which can be quite helpful if ever something goes wrong;
- Avoid paying with E-transfer and pay with your credit card if possible. Most credit card companies will refund your money if you can prove the seller did not deliver what was promised;
- Ask for high def pictures and close-ups of critical areas such as the bridge, saddle, frets, etc.
- A video or an audio recording can be useful. But the quality of the recording, mic placement and the player's ability can unfairly influence your evaluation of the guitar;

- Ask:
- Is he the original owner and has the guitar been gigged;
- Has the guitar had any repairs or modifications;
- Is the owner aware of any structural issues or will the guitar be in need of any repairs;
- Are there any blemishes, scratches, dents, cracks, finish checking, buckle rash or any other issues that don't appear on the photographs or that the seller is aware of;
- Saddle height, Fret ware, tuners, pick-up condition;
- Neck angle and action height (If needed, I ask the seller to take a picture with a straight edge extending from the neck to the bridge, and for the action, if he can't measure it, I'll ask to take a picture with 2 dimes under the low E @ the 12th fret.);

- Make sure to keep written records of your exchanges with the seller (emails, texts, etc.)

I admit, some sellers might be a bit annoyed with all the questions. I usually take it as a sign that they have something to hide. A good seller wants you to be happy with your purchase and should do everything that is required to make you feel comfortable (within reason). Try to do your homework before talking to the seller. It will show him you are serious and well informed and will avoid wasting time on obvious questions. Above all, be nice and courteous.

Good luck with the hunt!

Claude
 
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Cougar

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....I have been looking at D55ce's on line. As I am currently learning to play in DADGAD tuning the extra frets that can be used maybe helpful.

Well, OK. Otherwise, I wouldn't suggest a cutaway. Just a traditionalist, I guess.

My actual question is this, what are the pitfalls of buying sight unseen on the internet? What is the best process to use when dealing with a remote seller? Is it reasonable to ask for a video clip of someone playing the guitar and is the sound quality over a computer with good headphones good enough to evaluate the sound quality?

I've bought dozens of guitars off of ebay and reverb, with near unanimous good results. (Sold quite a few, too.) It's best to contact the seller, at least through email/message, to ask any questions that aren't shown in the photos or explained in the description. Most sellers rate their guitars pretty well - excellent, very good... "Good" and "fair" might be best to stay away from unless you're expecting to put in some work on the guitar. As has likely been mentioned (I haven't read all comments yet), you want to check the bridge+saddle height, the action (string height at 12th fret), the neck angle (does a straight-edge along the fretboard hit the top of the bridge?), and of course cracks, especially in the neck or where the neck joins. I've never asked for a video clip. There are usually demos of the same guitar on youtube somewhere, but it's pretty subjective getting a feel for the tone over the internet. You just want a reasonable return policy in case the tone doesn't fit your needs. I really love my Guild jumbos, but best of luck in your hunt for a dread!
 

LAP57

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I don’t think a mandolin is in my future. I have a Simon & Patrick 12 fret parlor guitar which is quite small and also a melodeon and hammered dulcimer. So plenty to do if my shoulder ever got so bad I couldn’t ’ continue with the guitar.

I will have to do some more research on smaller guilds.
 

Neal

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+1 for the F-30.

i just hit the big 6-0, and my dreads and jumbos are just starting to get to my shoulder a bit, especially if I play them sitting down.

i recently acquired a 2012 F-30R Standard, which also has a wider (1 3/4") nut. It is the perfect size and shape for an "in your lap" couch guitar. It retains enough size to provide some meaty bass, yet is small enough to play with comfort for hours.
 

fronobulax

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Since we seem to be ignoring your "how to buy" question and answering "what to buy instead" (with a couple exceptions...)

If you can find someone you trust locally and can get them to do an inspection that helps a lot. If you can't then the general rule is to ask questions and ask for measurements and pictures. If you assume a basic honesty the biggest issue with an acoustic guitar, IMO, is whether it will need a neck reset in the near future. Instruments that do sell for several hundred dollars less than instruments that don't.

If you are not afraid of someone buying the instrument out from under you, posting about it at LTG and asking for opinions will increase your confidence about the purchase.

If you are not certain that the specific instrument will work for you then you probably need to not buy sight unseen or make sure the seller will accept a return if it doesn't "work" and budget for the cost or return packing and shipping.

eBay and Reverb have policies in place that generally protect buyers. Using PayPal or a credit card also provides some protection. Buying from a shop that has a physical presence somewhere can be safer than buying from an individual. An ongoing business wants happy customers.

Guitar Center can often be a good option. The will ship a used item to a local store and the return policy is somewhat generous - 7 days for vintage and 30 for used - but there have been reports of local stores understanding the policy differently so ask before you commit.
 

mavuser

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hello, and welcome. i’ve never seen or known of a Guild D55ce. if this is what u meant, could you please post a link to that guitar? did u mean D-50 ce? or D-5ce?

either way- the advice to try an F-30 is excellent advice. there are long scale and short scale F-30s. the D 50/55/5ce etc are all long scales. late 70s generally are the long scale F-30s.

buying online can be a gamble for sure. it can definitely pay off. can also be a disappointment. F-30s are not so difficult to find. so, no hurry to purchase online unless u are completely comfortable doing so.
 

richardp69

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Hi LAP,

Personally, I find a jumbo more comfortable to play than a dread because of the way the narrower waist sits in your lap. Otherwise, as others have said, I find my F30 to be the most comfortable, easiest playing guitar because of its size, weight and short scale. Plus its quite versatile for its size. I would consider something like that if I were in your shoes.

As far as buying online sight unseen, I've bought most of my guitars online because they're almost impossible to find otherwise in my area. I've had mostly good luck, but there is a certain risk for sure. You won't know for sure until you physically play the guitar. Assuming you're considering a per-owned guitar, if you want to minimize the risk:

- Buy from a seller that has a good online reputation with lots of positive feedback;
- Buy from a seller that has a good return policy if you decide to send it back;
- Talk to the seller over the phone to get a feel for the person. I'm always amazed at how much you can learn just be talking over the phone...
- Use a 3rd party site such as Reverb or even Ebay than can act as an intermediary or offer an escrow service which can be quite helpful if ever something goes wrong;
- Avoid paying with E-transfer and pay with your credit card if possible. Most credit card companies will refund your money if you can prove the seller did not deliver what was promised;
- Ask for high def pictures and close-ups of critical areas such as the bridge, saddle, frets, etc.
- A video or an audio recording can be useful. But the quality of the recording, mic placement and the player's ability can unfairly influence your evaluation of the guitar;

- Ask:
- Is he the original owner and has the guitar been gigged;
- Has the guitar had any repairs or modifications;
- Is the owner aware of any structural issues or will the guitar be in need of any repairs;
- Are there any blemishes, scratches, dents, cracks, finish checking, buckle rash or any other issues that don't appear on the photographs or that the seller is aware of;
- Saddle height, Fret ware, tuners, pick-up condition;
- Neck angle and action height (If needed, I ask the seller to take a picture with a straight edge extending from the neck to the bridge, and for the action, if he can't measure it, I'll ask to take a picture with 2 dimes under the low E @ the 12th fret.);

- Make sure to keep written records of your exchanges with the seller (emails, texts, etc.)

I admit, some sellers might be a bit annoyed with all the questions. I usually take it as a sign that they have something to hide. A good seller wants you to be happy with your purchase and should do everything that is required to make you feel comfortable (within reason). Try to do your homework before talking to the seller. It will show him you are serious and well informed and will avoid wasting time on obvious questions. Above all, be nice and courteous.

Good luck with the hunt!

Claude

I think Claude's response is really good and really thorough. I also buy about 90% of my gear unseen because of the remote area in which I live. I've had a couple lemons but overall a pretty good experience and actually struck up some long distance friendships/communications.
 

adorshki

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Hi LAP,

Personally, I find a jumbo more comfortable to play than a dread because of the way the narrower waist sits in your lap. Otherwise, as others have said, I find my F30 to be the most comfortable, easiest playing guitar because of its size, weight and short scale. Plus its quite versatile for its size. I would consider something like that if I were in your shoes.

Welcome aboard, LAP!
Think the caveats of internet buying have been well-covered already so wanted to suggest one more body type to consider, the F40-based guitars***, they have a 16" lower bout plus the narrow waist that Clyde mentions.
I started getting fatigue in my shoulder from extended playing myself a couple of years back, and my F65ce stared becoming my go-to. I can play it much longer without fatigue.
Note also the "Fxxce" guitars are all cutaways (and "e" means built-in pickup)
Guild made more variations of the 16" lower bout cutaways than any other body shape, so I could also say "read between those lines".
Besides F40 you can see F47ce (mahogany body) and F47Rce (rosewood body) and F47Mce(maple).
There were also some less common variants from Westerly in the '80's, see the "Grand Auditorium section on this site:
http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars.html
**Be aware Oxnard's current F40 is actually a 17" lower bout....basically same as your JF4NT except with a flat back.
And no cutaway version available at this time.
 

Charlie Bernstein

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Hi, Larry!

Lots of great stuff above.

I've had my share of triumphs and sorrows buying instruments online. It's not for the fainthearted! But it can be done. See answers to your questions below.

I have been reading the board off and on for many years. Having recently retired, I am actually finding the time to learn to play. I currently have a Guild JF4-NT and with my increased playing time I think may be aggravating a shoulder injury. I am currently working on changing my ergonomics which may help. I have found that playing my parlor guitar is easier on my shoulder although the sound is a little lacking after playing a jumbo. This has created an excuse to buy a dreadnought guitar which would be smaller then my jumbo and probably sound nearly as good. I have been looking at D55ce's on line.

It will sound different - but great. I've never heard anyone complain about the sound of a D55!

As I am currently learning to play in DADGAD tuning the extra frets that can be used maybe helpful. My actual question is this, what are the pitfalls of buying sight unseen on the internet?

It depends. Some sites are very carefully policed by the hosts. Reverb.com one. They make it very hard for scams to happen. For example, they escrow your payment and don't release it to the seller until the seller provides a shipping tracking number. They're also prompt and professional in answering questions and helping resolve problems.

Others are death traps. Craigslist, for example, is crawling with scammers. That doesn't mean don't use it, but I'd only buy a guitar from there in person. I've met up with people at fast-food restaurants, both as buyer and seller. That's the safe way to buy from Craigslist sellers.

Most sites fall somewhere in between. For openers, skip ads:

- WRITTEN ALL IN CAPS.
- involving third parties.
- from people in other countries.
- with terrible spelling or grammar or written in text-ese.
- asking for personal information that has nothing to do with the transaction.

I like dealing with advertisers who:

- offer their phone numbers and addresses.
- seem like reasonable, sober people when I talk with them.
- have believable reasons for selling the instrument.
- don't tell me there's another person waiting to buy the instrument.
- seem straightforward about any issues the instrument has.
- are willing to take it back within two or three days as long as I'm will to pay the return shipping.
- generally seem to know what they're talking about.

What is the best process to use when dealing with a remote seller?

Have a good, unhurried phone conversation (or two). If there are any red flags, move on. If a seller you don't like pesters you, just say you've bought what you're looking for from someone else, thanks very much. That always works!

Ask questions. Is the neck bowed? What's the relief at the twelfth fret? What's the condition of the tuners? Are there any cracks or repairs? And so on.

The more photos you can look at, the better. If you seem sincerely interested in buying, most sellers will happily tell you what you want to know and send you more pictures.

Is it reasonable to ask for a video clip of someone playing the guitar . . .

Some people can provide them, some can't. It doesn't hurt to ask, but I wouldn't make it a condition of the purchase.

. . . and is the sound quality over a computer with good headphones good enough to evaluate the sound quality?

No. You can tell some general things about the sound, like whether it's in tune, but only hearing is believing.


Sure thing! Let us know how it all works out!
 
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