NGD: Starfire III-90

parker_knoll

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Are you concerned that the tuners are "unwinding" the string? Or do the pegs feel loose?

not that the pegs feel loose; rather that there is slack in the gears. You turn a bit and feel nothing is happening before they engage. I "lock" my strings with a reverse wind anyway which usually seems to work for tuning.

My beef with Rotomatics isn't about stability (they're fine) but feel. I can never get a sense of how much I need to turn a tuning key to get x amount of pitch change.

My '71 S-100 has a set of '50s-era Grover Sta-Tites on it via the guy I bought it from. They're fantastic! Super stable and very precise. I wish the newer ones, while okay, were this good.

-Dave-

Exactly. Waverlys and Sta-tites are really good. However, isn't a Rotomatic the same basic components as a Sta-tite but in a sealed box?

I wonder if Sta-tites are a drop in replacement for the Rotomatics.

EDIT: I've downloaded plans for the different Grovers. when i have a moment i'll work out if they are the same dimensions
 
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DThomasC

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The Sta-Tites definitely will not drop in. They use a different size bushing and have two mounting screws instead of one. I really don't like the new Sta-Tites anyway. They use a nylon compression washer that makes them stiff and even sticky sometimes. You can replace the nylon washer with a metal wavy washer and a flat washer. That improves them drastically, but why should you need to?

Anyway, from the drawings at Stewmac, it looks like the Gotoh Magnum Lock will drop in if you want to try a different brand (I have no experience with the Gotoh.) Available with keystone or "regular" knobs
 

Quantum Strummer

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Gotoh makes the best modern "Kluson" Deluxes I've come across. I've swapped out the rubbish metal key Klusons in a number of '70s Gibson SGs for Gotohs. The Rotomatic-like tuners they made for Ibanez in the early '80s are great too. I imagine they still make equivalents now. A better modern Sta-Tite would be great…

-Dave-
 

parker_knoll

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The Sta-Tites definitely will not drop in. They use a different size bushing and have two mounting screws instead of one. I really don't like the new Sta-Tites anyway. They use a nylon compression washer that makes them stiff and even sticky sometimes. You can replace the nylon washer with a metal wavy washer and a flat washer. That improves them drastically, but why should you need to?

Yep, different peg sizes: Statites are 23/64ths of an inch, Rotomatics are 25/64ths of an inch, so it would require a bushing. Thanks for the user feedback on the Statites.

I also dislike the large size and shape of the Grover buttons aesthetically. I notice that Newark St Starfires have been issued with vintage-style tuners and look great with them:

starfire_VI_back.jpg


Isn't a Waverley a better version of a Statite? Just a shame they're so damn expensive.
 

DThomasC

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From the datasheet linked to:...the SXN510 series employs a nut mount system and can be installed as a direct replacement into the same holes drilled for Rotomatic style tuners.

Except that Rotomatics have only one mounting screw? Certainly the bushing is right (10mm screw on) but I don't think the mounting screws are in the right place or the right quantity.
 

parker_knoll

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yep, requires a second screw, obviously, but that's easy. I'll drop them a line about the other screw but it may well be in the same place
 

SFIV1967

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yI'll drop them a line about the other screw but it may well be in the same place
You have the dimmensions on their page, it's 10mm below center, but 10.5mm for Grover Rotomatics. So it's not a perfect fit.

SXN510-Dim-1-1.jpg


Ralf
 
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parker_knoll

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Okay, so apparently the Grover Deluxe Kluson imitations are a direct fit. Not as appealing to me as an open tuner, but if it fits it fits and will look more elegant.

handler.ashx


https://www.grotro.com/Grover/VINTAGE/Vintage-Deluxe-136-Series

Another possibility is the conversion bushings sold by a number of people including Guitarfetish and Kluson. It doesn't help with the screw holes, but at least helps with the post diameter.

https://www.wdmusic.co.uk/hardware-...-to-vintage-adapter-bushing-kit-metric-p13416
 
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DThomasC

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Not sure how those are a better fit than the Gotoh SXN510. In both cases the bushing is right, but the mounting screws are in the wrong place - plus there's two of them.

I think the only drop in replacement is more Rotomatics or copies of Rotomatics by other manufacturers.

As for conversion bushings, my opinion is that they might have their place, but if you can get tuners with the right bushing, then you might as well. The 10mm screw-in bushing that you have now really is a mechanical improvement over the older, smaller press fit bushing. Since your headstock is drilled for them, you might as well use them. But that's just my opinion.
 

parker_knoll

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Not sure how those are a better fit than the Gotoh SXN510. In both cases the bushing is right, but the mounting screws are in the wrong place - plus there's two of them.

Are you sure both the screws are in the wrong place? I measured and the bottom one seems to be in the right place, and I have had that confirmed by someone else. I don't want to buy these if I'm wrong as I'm planning to get them from the US where they're half the price for me.
 

GAD

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I’m still surprised that the Rotomatics are problematic. Have you ever used them before? Most guitars I see with swapped out tuners have people going *to* Rotomatics if not locking tuners.
 

DThomasC

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Are you sure both the screws are in the wrong place? I measured and the bottom one seems to be in the right place, and I have had that confirmed by someone else. I don't want to buy these if I'm wrong as I'm planning to get them from the US where they're half the price for me.

Could be. I can't find any drawings of the Vintage Deluxe that show the distance between the string post and the nearest mounting screw. They seem to be copies of Klusons, though that doesn't mean the dimensions are exactly the same. Tomorrow I'll get out my box of random tuners and make some measurements.
 

parker_knoll

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Could be. I can't find any drawings of the Vintage Deluxe that show the distance between the string post and the nearest mounting screw. They seem to be copies of Klusons, though that doesn't mean the dimensions are exactly the same. Tomorrow I'll get out my box of random tuners and make some measurements.

I can't remember if I've had them before, to be honest. The fact that they're ugly drives my tinkering :)

NB they're not the same dimensions as a Kluson so measuring a Kluson won't help. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I've ordered a set so I'll report back.
 
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Quantum Strummer

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I bet the whole "upgrade to Grovers" phenomenon began with a set of worn out Klusons on a famous player's Les Paul or 335 that were swapped for Rotomatics (they're heavier…they must be better!), followed by prominent gigs or TV appearances playing this guitar. Imitation took care of the rest. :)

-Dave-
 

Walter Broes

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The Gotoh open back tuners you posted are vastly superior to the Grover deluxes you posted Parker. I prefer vintage style tuners like Klusons and open-backs too, but I don't find grover Rotomatics nearly as ugly as typical square button Schaller tuners. Schallers are hideous...even if they're probably superior to anything else mentioned. However great they are....yuk!

I actually think they new-ish Grover "milk bottle" Rotomatics are kinda cool, they look closer to a 60's Grover Rotomatic. I'm not about to replace the Kolbs on my old Manhattans with them, but still. They don't offend me. :laughing:
 

parker_knoll

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The Gotoh open back tuners you posted are vastly superior to the Grover deluxes you posted Parker.

Yep, and the look nicer too. Just they require new holes while the Grovers don't since one hole matches and you don't actually need the other, at least not until you decide the change is permanent.

BTW, I like Schallers. They looked great on my Ric
 
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