Quick M20 Assessment, Please?

fronobulax

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Already sold. Nothing I could see in the pictures made me question the label, logo or headstock. Either it is fairly early or someone will come along and educate me.
 

mavuser

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the headstock logo, and likely the entire faceplate/veneer of the headstock is a replacement. i think the logo on the headstock is not early enough to match that label. the bridge also looks like a replacement
 

Kitarkus

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Are you the Buyer Dave? Don't I recall that you had an old M-20 (or two) prior?...or were they F-20's?...one of which with heavy over spray at the the interior cavity? This ebay M-20 certainly looks old (ghost label new york). Mav is the M20 expert for sure....but it all looks funny to me...headstock....logo...headstock shape. That saddle must be 1/2" tall! cracked bridge. The guitar back looks like it may have been wet..expanded..then dried. Tons of mojo and I don't doubt that it sounds great. I completely understand your romance with these vintage M-20's....but at $900..need for repairs..potential lack of structural integrity...need for new bridge/saddle...and more...I dunno if I'm that desperate for the headaches.

It certainly appears that someone has enjoyed, loved, and kept that guitar vibrating for many years....else they have tried to take a basket-case and attempted to get it 'market ready'. A rare old M20 for most of us...but Mav gets one of these offered to him about every two weeks :)
 

jedzep

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Haha, yes Kit. I grabbed it, and noticed the saddle height on the old Guild (but not original) bridge. Also possible that the poorly fitting saddle may have had something to do with the crack. I have the correct saddle and pins to install, also a good relationship with the seller for adjustments. I loaded him up with questions and got adequate replies, especially about the back cracks. Another big deal for me was not wanting a divotted fingerboard, came back VG condition. Headstock veneer? Hey, it's a very old M20, so I assume the original peeled off. Couldn't come up with the 13 or 14 hundred bucks for one in great condition, but I wish I had asked Mav to share the offers.

I have a few luthier tricks up my sleeve, but I'm betting on tone. I was pleasantly surprised to see string height around an eighth of an inch up high on the neck, and when I get that saddle issue out of the way, I'm guessing I'll get the action waaay low. Why the owner didn't at least get new pins I'll never know, but I know it brought a tear to his eye to sell. Some people still don't know how to properly seat their strings against the plate, and do damage.

I look at it as a rescue, maybe a bit costly, but a very early run of these guitars. Never have seen that label before.

Hey, what's life without a little vintage guitar buying angst?
 

mavuser

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Kitarkus- that is not the ghost label on the ebay M-20. at 1957, it predates the ghost label (1959).

im down to 1 M-20. the 1963 that Tom Jacobs refinished. sold 2 trainwreks and passed on several others.
 

jedzep

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mavuser

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the one in the reverb link u posted is original. script logo. the face of the headstock on those old ones almost looks painted black, u can see the grain/pores of the wood after many decades, thru the black. on yours it looks like somone may have re-painted the face of the headstock and added the Westerly logo, or possibly the black on yours is a Guild veneer or finish. hard to say.

did u ask the seller if the neck and/or headstock had ever been broken and/or repaired?
 

jedzep

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At this juncture I'd rather not know. It'll be in hand next week and I'll look. Thinking after a fresh set of T-Infeld 11's, a good fitting bone saddle and pins I'll get to swoon for a while.

Bet I couldn't find a stencil/decal of that logo if my life depended on it, though I know one can be created with a photo and scanning software. If I love the guitar I'll chase that option.

I could live with the Westerly lettering if the dang fool had positioned it a little lower.

Tone, tone, tone! I beseech the vintage guitar gods, and UPS. Deliver me this.
 

mavuser

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I would ask Hans Moust what he knows about this particular guitar, before touching the headstock, or anything else. there is a possibility that the work was done by Guild at a later date. it looks like if the headstock logo was lower, it would “crash” into the string/tuner posts. i like the way it looks with the gold peaked logo at the very top in the centerfold of the “open book” headstock shape.

there is a peaked 60s logo for that same headstock (1962-63). it is more pearly though not gold. it must be smaller also, based on my observation above.

11’s is a great call. I use Martin retro monels and ocassionally JP 550 SL’s. have fun!
 

fronobulax

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I'm a little confused about the logo discussion.

This is the one we are talking about, correct?

s-l1600.jpg


According to Hans' book that logo was used circa 1956, so I am not sure what we are calling "Westerly". The headstock shape is 1950's. That style of metal TRC appears to be later although we don't know just what was replaced. The peak of the logo seems awfully close to the edge of the headstock but that could be camera angle or factory work where all the tolerances "lined up" the wrong way. It does look like painted wood rather than an overlay. I'm just not certain everyone is talking about the same thing and/or someone is seeing something I am missing.

Thanks.
 

chazmo

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Fro, I think that's right. That's the headstock from jezdep's posted eBay listing, I'm pretty sure he said that's the one he bought. And, right, this would have nothing to do with Westerly initially, but mav was suggesting that perhaps it'd had some factory re-work at a later date (perhaps in Westerly?). Anyway, mav's advice to hit up Hans for any add'l info on this axe seems like a good one.
 

mavuser

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I'm a little confused about the logo discussion.

This is the one we are talking about, correct?

s-l1600.jpg


According to Hans' book that logo was used circa 1956, so I am not sure what we are calling "Westerly". The headstock shape is 1950's. That style of metal TRC appears to be later although we don't know just what was replaced. The peak of the logo seems awfully close to the edge of the headstock but that could be camera angle or factory work where all the tolerances "lined up" the wrong way. It does look like painted wood rather than an overlay. I'm just not certain everyone is talking about the same thing and/or someone is seeing something I am missing.

Thanks.

we are looking at the same thing, yes.

a peaked logo similar to this one was being used by Guild in 1957 BUT:

1-it was not solid gold in color (until 1970 ish). in 1957 it would be more pearly in appearance and more “inlayed”

2-It was not used on the M-20 in 1957 (should be gold script logo, similar in nature to the gold Westerly peaked logo in that it is “not as inlayed” as the pearly peaked Hoboken logo.)

See Hans’ book page 26 upper leftmost image and “headstock logos & inlays” and immediately below to see a description of what a typical M-20 headstock logo would look like in 1957.

I had to edit my post. Jed Zeps TRC is also not from 1957. those came a little later. the gold peaked logo and the TRC would have overlapped during 1970 and 1971. so some work may have been done around that time
 
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mavuser

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You may have something cool. there is a chance this entire guitar was refinished by Guild at Westerly in 1970/71. I hope thats what it turns out to be. id be curious to know if there appears to be any headstock or neck repairs. if not, it may have just had a neck reset and refin. all just speculation of course. i have a 1970 F-20 that was as re-topped and refinished at Westerly in 1980. id guess it had a neck reset as well at the same time. I also have a 1963 M-20 that has had work done including a factory equivalent refinish by Tom Jacobs at the end of 2016. they are the nicest Westerly F-20 and Hoboken M-20 I know of in existence. (Hans owns the nicest Westerly M-20 i know of, and its still the short scale/Hoboken spec.)
 

mavuser

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i believe the replacement bridge on your guitar is also a 60s Guild F-20 bridge. id guess some work was done right around 1970
 

jedzep

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They are silk and steel, as told by the seller, who fears the cracked bridge through the saddle slot wouldn't survive the pull of standard steel/bronze. I've asked him to pull pins and saddle before shipping, which appears to be ill fitting and too tall, leaning a bit into the s'hole side wall of the slot. That's a bad lie, especially considering the location of the crack.

I would welcome knowing it got a Guild factory refurb, but I have to get it in hand to see if there are telltale signs. I thought the gold script logo I sent in the sample Reverb listings was more like the other late 50's M20 I owned, so I assumed the peghead veneer could have been replaced. I'm not complaining about the period incorrect style...in fact, coming to accept it.

I have asked Hans to look it over, but haven't heard yet.
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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Hans has said he's away from home on a camping trip...checking in when he has wifi and knows the answer without doing research...if you're patient I'm sure he'll weigh in when he gets back...interesting guitar.
 
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