Guild Starfire bass and Epiphone Jack Casady...

Minnesota Flats

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Anyone here own both?

I'd be interested to see a PIC of these two sitting side-by-side, just to have an idea of relative, over-all instrument size as well as location of bridge. I would think that because the EJC bridge saddles are located further toward the lower bout strap button than those of the SF that this would reduce the difference in ergonomics resulting from the difference in scale length.

Here is a PIC, but the two are not to scale:



String spacing on the Guild looks much tighter, especially on up the neck. My impression is that the bodies of these two are roughly similar in size, but as I've yet to ever see an EJC "in the flesh", let alone get a chance to play one, I'm curious.

Thanks in advance for any PICs or verbal impressions.
 

fronobulax

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twocorgis and mellowgerman have each owned (at least) one of each but I m not sure they were in the stable at the same time or what pictures may have been taken.

While waiting, what do you mean by "the difference in ergonomics resulting from the difference in scale length"? If you asked me, the first thing that comes to mind is the fretting hand and that has nothing to do with where the bridge is. Headstock dive or the other ergonomic factors associated with holding, rather than playing, also seem to have nothing to do with the bridge. Maybe you are referring to something to do with plucking/picking?

In my case that is the right hand. I used to anchor my thumb somewhere on the bass and adjust accordingly. The distance between my thumb anchor position and the bridge definitely effected the ease with which I could get certain tones. But I am trying to rebuild my right hand technique and use a string as the anchor and my forearm for stability on the E string. In that case I have not found any real ergonomic issues other than stuff getting in the way of my hand and that is not necessarily related to scale length or bridge position. My comparisons are a Pilot with a 34" scale and a similarly shaped Betts bass with a 31" scale.
 

twocorgis

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Anyone here own both?

I'd be interested to see a PIC of these two sitting side-by-side, just to have an idea of relative, over-all instrument size as well as location of bridge. I would think that because the EJC bridge saddles are located further toward the lower bout strap button than those of the SF that this would reduce the difference in ergonomics resulting from the difference in scale length.

Here is a PIC, but the two are not to scale:



String spacing on the Guild looks much tighter, especially on up the neck. My impression is that the bodies of these two are roughly similar in size, but as I've yet to ever see an EJC "in the flesh", let alone get a chance to play one, I'm curious.

Thanks in advance for any PICs or verbal impressions.

I have both, and would be happy to take a picture for you later. Love them both too, and the Casady might have the best tone of any of mine for most of the stuff I play, and the Hipshot Tuner/bridge mods took care of the neck dive. That being said, I've been on a bit of a short scale kick lately with the arrival of the DeArmond Starfire, and the GSR M85II. Do you want body and nut/string spacing measurements too?
 

mellowgerman

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Yup, the bridge on the Casady is considerably farther back on the body than on a Starfire. This is also part of the reason why a Casady hardshell case works well for a Starfire, even though their scale lengths are quite different. I actually made a photo comparison of the Casady in its case and a vintage Starfire inside the same case. These probably got lost in the great tipping of the photobucket of 2017(?)
In any case, standing up, I found that the Starfire does balance and hang a bit "better" than the Casady, but not by a whole lot. I found that I would sling the Casady a little lower than my Starfires. They're just two different really great bass designs, and I thoroughly enjoyed playing both.
 

Minnesota Flats

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Fronobulax,

Q: "While waiting, what do you mean by 'the difference in ergonomics resulting from the difference in scale length'? If you asked me, the first thing that comes to mind is the fretting hand and that has nothing to do with where the bridge is. Headstock dive or the other ergonomic factors associated with holding, rather than playing, also seem to have nothing to do with the bridge. Maybe you are referring to something to do with plucking/picking?"

A: My thinking is this: even with two basses of equal scale length, the closer the bridge is located towards the middle of the body, the greater the reach to the nut (and the "money" frets) will be. The only way that the reach to the nut would not increase as the bridge is moved towards the middle of the body would be if the scale length was shortened by the same amount that the bridge is moved. If that is so, then if you have two basses whose bodies are similar in size but whose scale lengths are different, then moving the bridge toward the "butt" end of the body of the one with the longer scale length should make the player's reach to the nut more similar to the shorty's than it would be if both bridges were located in relatively the same spot. (Hope that makes sense). All I know is that, at least in my own experience, shorties with the bridge located closer to the butt end of the body (e.g. most Fenders) seem to feel "smaller" than those with the bridge located closer to the middle. Maybe that isn't everyone's perception, but it is mine, which accounts for the logic of my statement in the opening post.


"But I am trying to rebuild my right hand technique and use a string as the anchor and my forearm for stability on the E string."

This is how I have always played, since I felt awkward from day one using any other sort of thumb rest or "tug bar" or using the pickup as an anchor point. This may be because the both the last joint (before the thumbnail) and the joint at the base of my thumb are a bit abnormal which may require that I position my thumbs somewhat differently (from what is normally considered "correct") in order for me to feel comfortable.
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Twocorgis,

Side-by-side PICs would be great. String spacing @ nut and bridge, and nut width measurement would also be helpful: whatever you have time for. Thanks a bunch in advance!

BTW/to whom it may concern: I'm old and play mostly sitting down, so since the "waist" of the body of whatever I'm playing pretty much always winds up on my right thigh, "how high or low it hangs" and "neck-dive" (unless very extreme) tend not to come into play as personal considerations in my case as they would for someone who mostly plays standing.
 

twocorgis

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Twocorgis,

Side-by-side PICs would be great. String spacing @ nut and bridge, and nut width measurement would also be helpful: whatever you have time for. Thanks a bunch in advance!

OK, did get a pic side by side, and interestingly enough they're very close in length. As MellowGerman pointed out, a lot of that is due to the bridge placement on the Casady.

46869013352_5e93a010bf_b.jpg



I measured the nut width and string spacing at the bridge and came up with this. Casady is 1 5/8" and the nut, and string spacing is 2 1/4" at the bridge. The bridge spacing may not be the same as stock because there is a Hipshot Supertone replacement bridge installed, which along with the Ultralite tuners do a great job of eliminating the neck dive that Casady basses are known for. The significant additional mass of the bridge improves the already great tone even more I think.

The SFII is 1 1/2" at the nut, and string spacing is 2" at the bridge. All parts affecting these parameters are stock on the Starfire.

Hope this helps!
 

Minnesota Flats

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Great! The PIC says a lot. Makes me think that the string spacing would be the main adjustment for me rather than the scale length.

Looks like the JC's lower bout might be 1/2" or so wider, but it's close.

As this PIC demonstrates, the fretting-hand "reach" to the nut/"money frets" is very similar on both (despite the difference in scale length) due the difference of bridge placement. The distance from the "waist" of the body to the nut seems nearly identical.

Thanks, twocorgis!
 

Minnesota Flats

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One more question, twocorgis: how does the base of that replacement bridge ride on the carved (well, probably pressed/molded, actually) JC top? Does it lie flush and match the slightly curved contour of the top, or is the bridge pretty much flat/straight across on the bottom?
 

twocorgis

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Great! The PIC says a lot. Makes me think that the string spacing would be the main adjustment for me rather than the scale length.

Looks like the JC's lower bout might be 1/2" or so wider, but it's close.

As this PIC demonstrates, the fretting-hand "reach" to the nut/"money frets" is very similar on both (despite the difference in scale length) due the difference of bridge placement. The distance from the "waist" of the body to the nut seems nearly identical.

Thanks, twocorgis!

The Starfire is pretty much an exact fit in the Casady case, in fact Greenie was shipped in one when I bought it. I had a Starfire I with an OHSC, and kept that case and sold the SFI to Fixit with the Epi case. The case is really long though, and both come up short by the headstock.

One more question, twocorgis: how does the base of that replacement bridge ride on the carved (well, probably pressed/molded, actually) JC top? Does it lie flush and match the slightly curved contour of the top, or is the bridge pretty much flat/straight across on the bottom?

Well, I'll let you be the judge of that. The Hipshot bridge mounts into the OEM posts, and I think my luthier might have put a couple of felt pads in there when he installed it. Highly recommended upgrade from the cheap stock bridge, BTW.

33047299008_6b50de36e4_b.jpg
 

mellowgerman

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I will second the Hipshot upgrade. I didn't love my JC bass until it had the Hipshot on it. I only bought mine because it was a good deal on a used one on the talkbass classifieds... after installing it though I realized that it would have been well worth the cost of a new one. Aside from the proper adjustability it allows for, I also noticed a much-welcomed improvement in string-to-string tonal/volume balance. On a less crucial note, I also think it looks a lot better.
 

twocorgis

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I will second the Hipshot upgrade. I didn't love my JC bass until it had the Hipshot on it. I only bought mine because it was a good deal on a used one on the talkbass classifieds... after installing it though I realized that it would have been well worth the cost of a new one. Aside from the proper adjustability it allows for, I also noticed a much-welcomed improvement in string-to-string tonal/volume balance. On a less crucial note, I also think it looks a lot better.

It's a real quality piece for sure, made even more obvious by how cheap the OEM bridge is. Amazing that Jack himself doesn't have this upgrade, especially considering how much it improves the balance.
 

fronobulax

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OK on ergonomics. If you are seated and the bass is "anchored" by the waist on your leg then the distance from your leg to the nut will depend on both the scale length and the location of the bridge, relative to the anchor. If I wanted to reduce this to one measurement I would measure the string from the waist "crossing" to the nut which is pretty much how far your hand has to reach.

That said I have found the angle of the neck (relative to my body, using the leg/waist as a pivot) makes a huge difference in how easy it is to reach and play the low end so any concerns you have about a long scale may be remedied by adjusting body angle. If, however, you identify yourself as a Tyrannosaurus Rex, all bets are off :)
 

Minnesota Flats

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Fronobulax,

"If, however, you identify yourself as a Tyrannosaurus Rex, all bets are off :) "

As you are doubtless discovering with altering your right-hand technique, old habits die hard...old dog/new tricks and all that. ;-P

R.e. the Hipshot: sounds more functional and, Lord knows, there are a lot of NON-fans of the Gibson 2-point and 3-point bass bridges. I wonder how the Babicz that Gibson has started using on their "SG"-style basses recently would fit (in terms of range of string height adjustability. Of the two, I find the Hipshot to be a bit more visually appealing and, from what I've heard, it may be a bit simpler to use and a little bit less expensive.



Thanks for all your responses, guys: very helpful and informative.
 
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fronobulax

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TJU12w9.gif


(I was referring to T. Rex in the sense of "short arms" not age, but was reluctant to say "short arms" knowing what a "short arm inspection" in the military).
 

lungimsam

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Minnesota:

My SG Bass played and looked fabulous but sounded terrible with stock 3-pt bridge. Got the Hipshot bridge and made a huge improvement on clarity and intonation ease. Wish they made one for Starfires!!
 

Minnesota Flats

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Maybe that particular mod has already been posted here in another thread. If so, I missed it.
 

mellowgerman

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I saw that one (or one just like it) over on talkbass.com a few years ago! Pretty neat idea if a swiss army bass is what the doctor ordered. I'd probably be more likely to install a casady pickup and electronics in the middle position of a Starfire though as I find Starfires to be the more comfortable and ergonomic of the two designs.
 
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Minnesota Flats

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Good point., mellowgerman. I've yet to find a Casady to try out in the flesh, but have little doubt that I'd wind up preferring the SF's shorter scale length and narrower neck.

Frono, I'm no fan of fishing for wires inside a hollow or semi-hollow instrument. I did an ES-335 once and it was a PIA (at least if compared to re-wiring a Fender scratchplate).
 
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