Vintage M20 Pick Guard

jedzep

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Hi friends.

As a long time PG hater, I've begun little by little to focus in on the accumulating strum wear caused by the edge of my hand between 4 and 5 o'clock off the sound holes. I'm not one of those maniacal strummers that cuts a ditch with my pick, but nevertheless I'm rubbing off the protective lacquer layer and now considering collecting the period correct matches for my guitars. I've easily gotten all but the M20, and hope some of you have a good fabricator to hook me up with.

Big thanks! Dave
 

SFIV1967

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I assume we are talking your 1957 M-20 ? The pickguard shape might have looked like this in 1957?

1958-guild-m20.jpg


This special shape would be not avaible as replacement today, you probably would have to cut it yourself from a sheet.

Guild offers a M-20 pickguard which might or might not fit but it is the later style.

https://shop.guildguitars.com/product/pickguard-tortoise-concert-m-20-m-40/

Ralf
 

jedzep

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Thanks Ralf. I saw this pic and figure that shape is candidate #1. There's another more teardrop shape that appeared early with a more rounded turn at the jag between the bridge and s'hole. I've asked Hans for input and conclusive correct shape. Talking to this maker in the meantime.

https://quickguards.com/
 

Rayk

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Hi friends.

As a long time PG hater, I've begun little by little to focus in on the accumulating strum wear caused by the edge of my hand between 4 and 5 o'clock off the sound holes. I'm not one of those maniacal strummers that cuts a ditch with my pick, but nevertheless I'm rubbing off the protective lacquer layer and now considering collecting the period correct matches for my guitars. I've easily gotten all but the M20, and hope some of you have a good fabricator to hook me up with.

Big thanks! Dave

If you repair the clear coat you could go with a maylar clear pick gaurd their tough, thin and hard to notice or should I say blends in well with the top.

I'm all for them 😁
 

SFIV1967

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There's another more teardrop shape that appeared early with a more rounded turn at the jag between the bridge and s'hole.
That's the mid 60ies stlye (3rd style already at that time):

o2eco3ywe3obxuotzfqk.jpg


S/N 1098 for instance looked like this:

Guild+png.png



It depends if your serial number is really 1957 or much later, as the M-20 serial numbers don't follow the Guild serial number system in the early years. Hans would know however so you are in good hands with him.

Ralf
 
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jedzep

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SFIV1967

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Ah I see, I miseed that thread end of last year. That's indeed an interesting one you got! Especially with that serial number and later M-20 (and M-30) got very different (lower) serial numbers.
Ralf
 

mavuser

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my luthier traced and duplicaed an F-20 one from my guitar and nailed it. a member here w a 59 M-20 uses the same luthier. if his 59 matches your 57 i should be able to get u a clone in cooperstown without much trouble
 

beecee

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i should be able to get u a clone in cooperstown without much trouble

Can I get a Thurman Munson???
 

jedzep

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my luthier traced and duplicaed an F-20 one from my guitar and nailed it. a member here w a 59 M-20 uses the same luthier. if his 59 matches your 57 i should be able to get u a clone in cooperstown without much trouble

Are you offering to get me a tracing? Thanks once again for any help. I think Ralf's (SFIV1967) photo of the wraparound guard above is what I'm looking for. I'm at jeddzepp@gmail.com

...whatever it takes.

Dave
 

adorshki

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Yep. Them's the ones. Pre-ghost label shows 5385 D. Earlier discussion is here. Extra soundhole ring is puzzling.

Maybe because it's an early build, it seems to me a guard was never applied. There is not a hint of a shadow or outline, so I figure someone may have requested it be left off at the time of purchase. Who knows!

http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?197691-Quick-M20-Assessment-Please&highlight=vintage

Or possibly because Hans has mentioned that a lot of these were ordered by schools as student instruments, a whole "order" or more were built that way as an extra bit of cost savings?
It just occurred to me that that might explain the s/n system anomalies, as well?
Maybe they were trying to use different numbers on the student models, perhaps due to a different warranty on them?
 

hansmoust

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Extra soundhole ring is puzzling.
Maybe because it's an early build, it seems to me a guard was never applied. There is not a hint of a shadow or outline, so I figure someone may have requested it be left off at the time of purchase.

Hello jedzep,

The extra soundhole ring was one of the first things I noticed, which was the reason I mentioned it in our earlier correspondence. However there were a lot of other things that were definitely Guild, but didn't look right on that particular instrument namely the logo, the metal truss rod cover and the bridge.

Without actually holding the guitar in my hands it's difficult to say what the deal is with this guitar, but I looked into it a little deeper and came to the following conclusion:

I believe that your guitar has a replacement top and that Guild used one from an M-30 from the early '60s or a top that was supposed to go on an M-30.

Looked for a photo showing an M-30 from the correct period in my files and I found one that was clear enough to 'blow up' the soundhole:

M30_rosette.jpg


This obviously means that the guitar must have been refinished as well, but I assume that it all must have been done in the Guild factory, so finishing would not have been a problem. All the other things that don't look right could have been added to the guitar, or not added in the case of the pickguard, but I have no way of knowing when exactly the work was done other than that it happened after (approximately) 1963.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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jedzep

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What a big pile of new information to digest! Thank you very much, Hans.

I need a drink.
 

jedzep

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Yes...unique, but I think I just felt the twinge of decreased vintage dollar value. Just a little twinge though, for the tone is typically sweet small bod hog, very much like my long lost '56 Martin 0017. Quite different from my beloved L0, which is darker and woodier sounding. I took off the T-Infeld 11's and went back to my go-to strings (Dunlop 80/20 13's tuned a step down D-D), and now (again) can't put it down. The new brightness and volume don't take away from the underlying chime.

I'm picturing the Guild employee staggering back from the nearest Hoboken pub after lunch and struggling to get that head stock face to look right.
 
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SFIV1967

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Have you checked with a mirror and light if by any chance there is any information written inside the top or on the bracings? Sometimes when repairs like the replacement of a top are done luthiers make a note inside.
Ralf
 

jedzep

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Checking. Might even try photographing, because there are some reinforcing strips squaring off under the sound hole, almost like what you'd need if you actually replaced the ring and hole or added on. I was going to have Dan Erlewine replace sections of the SH binding on my J50, but when he said he'd just cut out the circle and patch in a new one I ran scared. I just never thought of approaching a repair so radically. I don't see ID markings or notations under the top though.

When Hans mentioned the top was prob replaced, the difference in the finish there vs. the rest of the body jumped out at me. There is wear only under the typical strumming arc.
 

adorshki

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Checking. Might even try photographing, because there are some reinforcing strips squaring off under the sound hole, almost like what you'd need if you actually replaced the ring and hole or added on.
The rosettes don't go through the wood, they're inlaid in a routed circle(s), so I suspect what you think are reinforcing strips are part of the standard reinforcing bracing around a soundhole, there were varying methods used in dreads over the years but I don't know what an M20 or M30 pattern might have looked like.
Sometimes they're just a plate laid inside the bracing square that typically surrounds the SH, so that still might fit what you describe.
I suspect they used an M30 type top simply because they had it handy and could be cut down to M20 dimensions easily.
(That's assuming Hans' assumption about it being factory work is correct, and he doesn't like to speculate without solid reasons to do so.)
Wouldn't be the first time we've seen a replacement top from a different model:
Saw an F30 with an F112 top once, confirmed by Hans because it had 12-string type bracing and the F112 was based on the F30 body and outline, so obviously they used something handy that fit.
I was going to have Dan Erlewine replace sections of the SH binding on my J50, but when he said he'd just cut out the circle and patch in a new one I ran scared. I just never thought of approaching a repair so radically. I don't see ID markings or notations under the top though.
Not sure I understand, did you mean he actually wanted to cut out a section of the top (Yes that is pretty radical!) or is that possibly what you thought he meant when he just wanted to replace the rosette rings?
Also we have had reports of replaced tops being signed by the guy who did 'em at Guild but can only recall 2 instances, one for sure (Carlo Greco signed the top when he replaced it on Chaz's F50r IIRC); and another for which the specifics elude me.
Doesn't mean they did it consistently though, the practice might have fallen off as production and repair volume went up.
The F30 mentioned above didn't have a sig IIRC, so lack of a signature doesn't necessarily rule out a factory repair.
 
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