The Mystery Guild, prepare for the weird...

adorshki · Mar 7, 2019

fronobulax said:
As did New Hartford.

Right, NH continued what Tacoma started, or more correctly, "revived" (usage of model names in addition to numbers).

fronobulax said:
My unreliable memory recalls that the Traditional series had the name but the Standard series equivalent did not.

For one thing, Adi wasn't offered on the Standards, in keeping with Tacoma's precedent that the names were only used on Adi-topped models.
And cutaway-with-pickup "ce's" were only offered on the Standards in NH.
And 1-3/4" nuts were only offered on the Aragon version of F30 in NH. (Actually can't recall if it was offered on any other models, but don't think so)

Rayk · Mar 7, 2019

Guildedagain said:
Hey Chaz,

I missed this somehow but it must have worked subliminally because it's exactly what I'm doing, so it's heartening to see someone with a lot of experience recommend this rather than giving up on it (someone understandably hollering "Send it back!) which I can't, don't know why, but I want to keep it, of course I want to keep it, I think it's one of one, somehow, for better or worse...

I think that insane cold ("dry cold") on the way here is where got it, I think it sucked every bit of moisture out of it. Freezing can do that, it's weird... You go inside and get totally overheated, and you're sweating and you think I can't go back out in that frozen sh*t like this, but you do, and in less than two minutes, you're totally dried out and you're just fine under all your layers. Sub zero temps pulls the moisture from your clothing almost instantly.

Fantastic advice though, I do have two sponges in there, and I pull it out a couple times of day to see if I'm starting to get a little haze on the guitar, and feeling for the fret ends to retract (if you will) to the point where they don't feel like they need filed (this would be nice).

I do have some string tension on it, at least a step down, just because I want to play it. I couldn't see tuning it and detuning it everyday, too much instability? I tuned it way down and discovered a new sound, and wt?, but I can do pentatonic scale bends that sound like I'm playing my Tele, and it sounds gorgeous to boot tuned down like that a little.

It's already part of my guitar journey, this could be "the" guitar for me, I think I'm still looking for that one.

Anyway, it is responding to treatment quite well, and I may have misjudged the neck angle, per Adorshki's post. I don't want to cut down a nice 36" metal rule, but I desperately need a 24" rule, the one I'm using is an old Wescott 18", and it is misleading. On this guitar, the end of the fret board looks like it sloping downwards to the top, but the neck angle looks like it's dead on up by the nut, which has been replaced, the nut slots are silly high and that will be addressed. I finally bought the files, the good ones from Stew Mac, 10 piece set, and maybe half my guitars need attention there... looks like I'll be starting with this one.

Speaking of high nut slots, I was on the phone with a longtime guitar player friend down the road from us, and he says (this could be guitar lore, or true?) "the reason why the nut slots are always high on a off the shelf guitar is for volume", to make the guitar loud. It makes total sense. You go into a store, check out a couple guitars, one's louder than the others, you buy it.

Damage could happen in cold shipping conditions but that looked a lot worse then it should have been .

I thought you would return it also but I couldn't make sense of some of your wording did you buy this as a project guitar ?

Westerly Wood · Mar 7, 2019

are we certain that is in fact warping or is it just camera flash? i cant tell

Guildedagain · Mar 7, 2019

Sadly, this one has a 1 11/16" nut, not surprised, and the outside to outside string spacing is the same as my '52 RI Tele at 1 7/16".

Guildedagain · Mar 7, 2019

No, that wasn't flash, handheld Panasonic Lumix LX5, just room light, and barely even representational of what I was looking at in person, it was sucked hollow on each side of the pickguard, besides other related anomalies. I've seen shrinking on all fine old acoustic guitars before, but this was uncharted territory for me...

I didn't buy it as a project, I was hoping it would be fine, but it is what is it. In my mind, I'd have to be a madman to return it, I'm not even contemplating it. I'd rather contemplate making it play great.

In my mind, I'm incredibly lucky to have it. And, I like like orphans, fixer uppers...

adorshki · Mar 7, 2019

Guildedagain said:
Hey Chaz,
I missed this somehow but it must have worked subliminally because it's exactly what I'm doing, so it's heartening to see someone with a lot of experience recommend this rather than giving up on it (someone understandably hollering "Send it back!) which I can't, don't know why, but I want to keep it, of course I want to keep it, I think it's one of one, somehow, for better or worse...

Actually you might have missed that even Chaz freaked out when he saw that top photo, but have no fear, at least me'n'Bobouz're in your corner.
:glee:

Guildedagain said:
I think that insane cold ("dry cold") on the way here is where got it, I think it sucked every bit of moisture out of it. Freezing can do that, it's weird...

That's true but suspect it was already too dry when it was shipped, it usually takes longer than a just a few days fro something like the fret-ends to be sticking out.
Also, Chaz mentioned a worry about neck-block shift, but that's typically a result of glue letting go which happens from too much heat and humidity.

Guildedagain said:
I do have some string tension on it, at least a step down, just because I want to play it. I couldn't see tuning it and detuning it everyday, too much instability? I tuned it way down and discovered a new sound, and wt?, but I can do pentatonic scale bends that sound like I'm playing my Tele, and it sounds gorgeous to boot tuned down like that a little.

It's why I want to continue doing that with my F65ce after seeing the suggestion from another owner about a year ago.

Guildedagain said:
It's already part of my guitar journey, this could be "the" guitar for me, I think I'm still looking for that one.

Keeping my fingers crossed for ya.

Guildedagain said:
Speaking of high nut slots, I was on the phone with a longtime guitar player friend down the road from us, and he says (this could be guitar lore, or true?) "the reason why the nut slots are always high on a off the shelf guitar is for volume", to make the guitar loud. It makes total sense. You go into a store, check out a couple guitars, one's louder than the others, you buy it.

I'm just a little skeptical about that, because volume comes from string break angle over saddle which is why the tallest practical saddle height is desirable.
Also shallow nut slots make a guitar feel hard to play, especially close to the nut.
I think the real reason is that it's always a lot easier to make the slots a little deeper to suit new owner's preference than it is to cut a new nut.
But some folks may actually like 'em that high fretboard, if they're really hard strummers, or want use mediums and a really hard pick attack like some bluegrass guys for example.
They're less likely to buzz or mute out when they're slightly high, close to the nut, especially if the action's low at the 12th.
So be very careful when using those files and see Frank Ford's notes on how to check action at the nut:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html

Guildedagain · Mar 7, 2019

Thx for the good advice on that, I won't do anything until I'm fully up to speed. I have been doing nuts (out of necessity) for years, bone nuts, each one is always a labor of love.

I think this one is plastic anyway, and glued, ick, I could see an afternoon of time lost there, just to clean that up for a bone nut. I usually spend about two days on a nut, getting it "there", but I always did the slots with whatever I had that would work. As Murphy would have it, of course I haven't had to make a nut since I got the files...

I prefer not to glue them. It's not a big deal, just string the guitar accordingly, as it will slide around. I've been known to cheat and put the tiniest dab of white glue under there as a holder, or in other cases use glue as a sealer/filler if the area has already been gouged on to the point where it's not seating square without air gaps.

I've got Erlewine's book on repair, and that other one by Ritchie Flieger I've had for years, so old his kid took all the pics on a 35mm Pentax Spotmatic and probably did all the pics himself in the darkroom, the good old days... I should take the time to see what Dan says on it, I should read the whole book cover to cover. Maybe I already did and already forgot? ;-)

I've come to re-respect books. The internet is a minefield of guys doing a video of doing something for the first time, and then wrong to boot.

Erlewine (I think it was) has a really excellent video on it.

Man, to work in a shop with a guy like that...

adorshki · Mar 7, 2019

Guildedagain said:
Sadly, this one has a 1 11/16" nut, not surprised, and the outside to outside string spacing is the same as my '52 RI Tele at 1 7/16".

I don't think it's sad, I still prefer the 1-11/16" over the other 2 "standards".
Actually wish my F65ce had it.
By far over the course of their history the 1-11/16" was most common and 1-3/4" was very unusual appearing only rarely until early '90's, even then kind of uncommon as an off-spec "surprise".
Think it was first spec'd on a volume production instrument on the GAD-30 in '04, and even that was an MIC item.
Otherwise, Tacoma was the first to offer a 1-3/4 nut flat-top in volume on the CO-1 and -2 (AND CV-1 and 2 F-40 shaped models); although there was faint-hearted effort out of westerly in '96-'97 with their A-25 and A-50, which were (maybe not-so-coincidentally?) also F30-shaped bodies.

Guildedagain · Mar 7, 2019

Holy #@&*

The Frank Ford stuff is amazing. Why didn't I know this?

Learning is great ;-)

adorshki · Mar 7, 2019

Guildedagain said:
Thx for the good advice on that, I won't do anything until I'm fully up to speed. I have been doing nuts (out of necessity) for years, bone nuts, each one is always a labor of love.

Got it, couldn't remember if you'd mentioned doing it before, but one of those things better said than not.

Guildedagain said:
I think this one is plastic anyway, and glued, ick, I could see an afternoon of time lost there, just to clean that up for a bone nut.

I don't know if they we offering bone back then, but they did use Micarta quite extensively for a long time.
It's very consistent and easy to work. Some folks casually call it a plastic but it's actually something like paper or cloth impregnated and pressure-baked in a phenolic resin, there're different types of it.

Guildedagain said:
I've come to re-respect books. The internet is a minefield of guys doing a video of doing something for the first time, and then wrong to boot.

I've always loved books too, might be why I like selling paper.
On top of the "bad info" issue on the net, I see a lot of amateur how-to vids that just aren't filmed or explained well, anyway.
Kinda like vintage adult movies.
Or, um, at least that's what I hear.
:glee:
Anyway, sounds like it's in the right hands, please keep us posted!

Guildedagain said:
Holy #@&*

The Frank Ford stuff is amazing. Why didn't I know this?

Learning is great ;-)

Heck I learned more about that stuff here in my first couple of years than I did in the previous 35!
My real mission here:
Help the guys who want to learn find the resources.

bobouz · Mar 7, 2019

adorshki said:
Actually you might have missed that even Chaz freaked out when he saw that top photo, but have no fear, at least me'n'Bobuz're in your corner.
:glee:

Yes indeed, right there with you! Remember that at this point, it's got 48 years under it's belt and has settled comfortably into it's current shapes & wrinkles. Again, you just need to assure that it's structurally stable. If so, and it's playability can be dialed in to suit your needs, you're good to go. I would just avoid medium strings & stick with light or extra-light.

I currently have a similar vintage '73 F-30R, which is tuned down a full step, and strung with D'Addario PB extra-lights. This happens to suit my light fingerpicking style, but also helps to assure that minimal force is being applied to the instrument.

Hope it all works out to your satisfaction!

Guildedagain · Mar 7, 2019

I'm so very hopeful that I can sort it without taking it to someone. I have a set of GHS silk extra lights on the way, I hope they get here soon. I had to stop myself before buying the D'addarios and John Pearse also. Right now the strings are tuned two frets under A=432Hz, which is another topic entirely ;-)

Guildedagain · Mar 8, 2019

Scale length is 25.5", like my D35, is that normal?

Also, the .054 ow E string is way too big for the nut slot, it barely even seats in it.

The nut was obviously cut for extra light strings.

Now I think it's bone, just not old, and supergued?

The bridge saddle looks, feels and sounds like bone.

Guildedagain · Mar 8, 2019

A few pics from today. I polished it some more, feeing it out.

It seems pretty amazingly solid. Still shrunken, but not as bad, but still highly visible in the right light, backlit window lighting, the kind that shows everything and this thing's got more curves than Raquel Welch...

In addition to the shrinking on both side sides of the soundhole, there is some crazy humping of the top below the bridge, as well as dipping of the top above the bridge.

Pics with observations.

Hollow pick guard area, the other side of the soundhole is gently dished. Also visible is the swelling below the treble side of the bridge.

In this shot you can see the swelling under the treble side of the bridge and as far as it goes on the bass side, the reflection lines are pretty representational of the curves of the top.

Treble side of the neck, evenly broken finish and residue of polish.

Back of neck.

Bass side.

Most of the top edges are like this, showing extreme shrinking as well as many fault lines in the wood. Also visible are signs of fingerboard butchery, and some extreme flattening of the fret edges, particularly on the treble side.

Quite light for this size guitar at 4:20 ;-)

Back to those Raquel curves, so… while it pulls the top up under the bridge, it pushes it down above the bridge, to the point where you can see a V in the top, just above the middle of the bridge.

Rayk · Mar 8, 2019

Guildedagain said:
No, that wasn't flash, handheld Panasonic Lumix LX5, just room light, and barely even representational of what I was looking at in person, it was sucked hollow on each side of the pickguard, besides other related anomalies. I've seen shrinking on all fine old acoustic guitars before, but this was uncharted territory for me...

I didn't buy it as a project, I was hoping it would be fine, but it is what is it. In my mind, I'd have to be a madman to return it, I'm not even contemplating it. I'd rather contemplate making it play great.

In my mind, I'm incredibly lucky to have it. And, I like like orphans, fixer uppers...

Well then enjoy ! I'm a sucker for orphans as well I just don't find them either that or they run away when I'm about .lol

bobouz · Mar 8, 2019

Okay, I’ve got to admit that the more pictures you post, the scarier it looks!

SFIV1967 · Mar 8, 2019

Would be a perfect candidate for a screw mount bridge doctor!

https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html

But I am not sure what is going on at the neck and inside the body, it almost looks like somebody did a neck reset in the past, so all the bracings should be checked first.

Ralf

fronobulax · Mar 8, 2019

adorshki said:
For one thing, Adi wasn't offered on the Standards, in keeping with Tacoma's precedent that the names were only used on Adi-topped models.
And cutaway-with-pickup "ce's" were only offered on the Standards in NH.
And 1-3/4" nuts were only offered on the Aragon version of F30 in NH. (Actually can't recall if it was offered on any other models, but don't think so)

We're probably talking past each other.

I was not willing to say that all Guilds with the name officially appended to the model number were Adi topped. That may be true but I don't know so I was deliberately avoiding the suggestion, which you seem to be asserting.

As you may recall Mrs. Fro. did an A/B hands on comparison between the F30 Stardard and F30 Traditional at one of the LMGs in New Hartford. Consequently I remember the differences rather well. The F30 Traditional has a 1 11/16" nut. The F30 Standard has a 1 3/4" nut.

Since I previously asserted that there was never a F30 Standard with Aragon appended as part of the name and have yet to be corrected, I'm not sure you intended to say "And 1-3/4" nuts were only offered on the Aragon version of F30 in NH."

Guildedagain · Mar 8, 2019

It certainly does look someone did a neck reset, but they didn't really bother to respray it in that area. I need to find one of my spare Acerbis plastic enduro mirror and stick it in there for a really good look.

Believe it or not, I've never looked inside acoustics much, if at all.

I've already thought about getting past all that with this one, examining everything, and maybe scraping some glue from the braces, it looks like the guy used the braces to wipe his fingers off on them, then it dripped from the top on to the back, I'll get some pics of this later, and also from the outer edge of the pickguard area repair straight down inside the lower bout, quite the mess there.

I'm not so concerned about glue there, but I'd like to clean it from the underside of the top and braces without doing any damage, with shaves.

I have a feeling that whoever did all this also sprayed the whole top as a sealer, maybe even with poly.

Now that it is hydrating, slowly (I have all tension off of it now), I'm starting to see finish cracks and "buckling" if you will of the top all around the edges, and it is finish checking where there was previously none. The guitar had almost zero checking when it got here, just a spot between the bridge and pickguard, now it's appearing everywhere.

I don't think I'm overhydrating it, but it seems like it's doing a mini version of frost heave, if you're familiar. It will probably settle back down, but right now everything is swelling back up. If the guitar had done the opposite, it would end up with stretch marks?

It's definitely alive.

At this point I really need the forum to help bring it back.

A bridge fix might be in order. I have a longtime friend and neighbor who's a luthier who can do anything, like fix the hole in the side of his '54 D18 that his 10 year old put in there one day while we were on the phone. I'm not sure I want this thing over at his house... In fact, I'm pretty sure I don't want to leave it at his house.

Maybe we should a sub-division in the "Home of the Flattops" for guitars that aren't so flat on top anymore ;-)

walrus · Mar 8, 2019

Guildedagain said:
It's definitely alive.

I enjoyed this comment!

The photos make me wonder if the guitar will sound like it has tremolo effects!

walrus

The Mystery Guild, prepare for the weird...

Reverential Member

Enlightened Member

Venerated Member

Enlightened Member

Enlightened Member

Reverential Member

Enlightened Member

Reverential Member

Enlightened Member

Reverential Member

Senior Member

Enlightened Member

Enlightened Member

Enlightened Member

Enlightened Member

Senior Member

Venerated Member

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods

Enlightened Member

Reverential Member