1973 Starfire II Bass 'hard' switch

fronobulax

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Interesting. I know that's kind of what they did on Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wild Side". The story goes that Herbie Flowers didn't know if they wanted upright or electric, so he brought his doghouse and his jazz bass. They used both and that makes for the unique bass part on the recording.

The Bass Tab White Pages - essentially transcriptions from recordings - has both electric and upright bass parts from Walk.

I had not heard about the switch existing in order to help get an upright bass tone in the studio but it makes a lot of sense. I seem to recall interviews with Carol Kay where she talks about the felt mute at the bridge. One of the reasons she gave for using it was to dampen overtones and thus get more of an upright sound from an electric in the studio. I recall someone else - James Jamerson? - with studio credits during the '60's who talked about what they did, on electric, to sound more like an upright when recorded. Part of the evolution of the instrument.

On overdubbing, at least two different bass players have said that they were in the studio overdubbing "keyboard bass" parts recorded by the Doors. The claim is easy to track for Light My Fire but I seem to recall one claim that the whole first album had overdubbed bass and that the Doors did not know that was done, at the time.
 

hieronymous

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The technique of using an electric bass to double an upright bass line is often referred to as "tic-tac bass" and I believe was developed in Nashville studios in the '50s & '60s. 6-string basses of the era like the Danelectro or Fender Bass VI are often credited as part of the sound - they are often referred to as "baritone guitars" but they actually go all the way down to the low E of a standard bass.

I personally see the hard setting being similar to the "baritone" setting on the Gibson EB-2 - just a guess of course. I remember reading somewhere that Chas Chandler - Jimi Hendrix manager but also bassist for the animals who played an Epiphone Rivoli, similar to the EB-2 - used the baritone setting (which Wikipedia calls a "choke switch."

I've thought about this for a long time, wish I had better evidence...
 

adorshki

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The technique of using an electric bass to double an upright bass line is often referred to as "tic-tac bass" and I believe was developed in Nashville studios in the '50s & '60s.
Just by way of corroboration that's how I understood it and a Google search for "tic-tac bass" brings up multiple refs that seem to confirm.
Here's just one:
http://therecordshopnashville.com/how-to-get-the-tic-tac-bass-sound/

On overdubbing, at least two different bass players have said that they were in the studio overdubbing "keyboard bass" parts recorded by the Doors. The claim is easy to track for Light My Fire but I seem to recall one claim that the whole first album had overdubbed bass and that the Doors did not know that was done, at the time.
From the usual source with sources cited:
"The album was recorded by producer Paul A. Rothchild and audio engineer Bruce Botnick at Sunset Sound Studios in Hollywood, California......
Krieger and session musician Larry Knechtel played electric bass on several songs in order to give some "punch" to the sound of Manzarek's Fender Rhodes keyboard bass"

Didn't recall the bit about Krieger but Knechtel was a prolific member of the Wrecking Crew and Sunset Sound was one of their favorite studios, in fact one of the most popular on the Strip due to its live room and echo chamber.
So suspect the producer might have easily tapped Knechtel just for being readily available and the band was well aware of the overdubs since Krieger himself was involved.
 
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fronobulax

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Just by way of corroboration that's how I understood it and a Google search for "tic-tac bass" brings up multiple refs that seem to confirm.
Here's just one:
http://therecordshopnashville.com/how-to-get-the-tic-tac-bass-sound/


From the usual source with sources cited:
"The album was recorded by producer Paul A. Rothchild and audio engineer Bruce Botnick at Sunset Sound Studios in Hollywood, California......
Krieger and session musician Larry Knechtel played electric bass on several songs in order to give some "punch" to the sound of Manzarek's Fender Rhodes keyboard bass"

Didn't recall the bit about Krieger but Knechtel was a prolific member of the Wrecking Crew and Sunset Sound was one of their favorite studios, in fact one of the most popular on the Strip due to its live room and echo chamber.
So suspect the producer might have easily tapped Knechtel just for being readily available and the band was well aware of the overdubs since Krieger himself was involved.

On the other hand...

Carol Kay interview at https://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/carol-kaye

Songfacts: What do you remember about working with the Doors?

Kaye: Well, the Doors weren't there. Just a couple of the guys were there in the booth. We cut the track ("Light My Fire"). I'm playing on that, but I don't like to talk about it because there's too many fanatics about that stuff. I'm a prude. I don't do drugs. I think it's stupid. I think for people to be into drugs and to die on stage, I think that's so stupid and totally unnecessary. So I stay away from even talking about that. But I am on the contract. Yeah, I played on the hit of that.
 

adorshki

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On the other hand...

Carol Kay interview at https://www.songfacts.com/blog/interviews/carol-kaye

"Huh".
I'm inclined to believe Carol's recollection since, to start, the sources specifically naming Knechtel contribution in the Wiki source citations are second hand.
Also who the hell would believe the same guy who played the bass for "Light My Fire" also became Bread's keyboardist?!?
:glee:
And I didn't want to go there earlier but Bread were the epitome of everything I hated about 1970's soft rock as a youth.
Even if David Gates did write one of my favorite Monkees tunes, "Saturday's Child".
Another one of the sources also has Knechtel as the guy playing opening chords for the Byrds' version of "Mr. Tambourine Man", when I thought the issue was that McGuinn was the only Byrd (as instrumentalist) used on the on the single.
Maybe this is a case of "What happens in the studio, stays in the studio"?
:glee:
Not only that, for all we know, both of 'em may have actually recorded dubs but only one wound up on the record.
Most important of all it sounds like Carol.
It sounds like the same bassist who gave us the bass line for "The Beat Goes On".
Something about the technique and style.
I gotta admit though, I think she borrowed heavily from "Killer Joe" when coming up with the line, itself right from her era as a jazz musician.
Another detail is as she mentions in the interview, Carol disagreed with Hal Blaine about when the term the "Wrecking Crew" actually first got used.
Blaine said it was contemporary and Carol says it wasn't.
Given I never heard the term until about 15 years ago myself, and yet was aware of the existence of a network of session musicians responsible for so much of the output of the '60s' top 40 music, I'm inclined to believe her about that, too, which reinforces my confidence in the accuracy of her memory in regards to the sessions...which she also mentions making diaries of.
Another way to assist accuracy of memory, when one eschews the use of drugs.
:biggrin-new:
That's a great interview, btw.
 
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Prince of Darkness

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Interesting. I know that's kind of what they did on Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wild Side". The story goes that Herbie Flowers didn't know if they wanted upright or electric, so he brought his doghouse and his jazz bass. They used both and that makes for the unique bass part on the recording.

From Wikipedia, "The song is also noted for its twin interlocking bass lines played by Herbie Flowers on double bass and overdubbed on a stacked knob 1960 fretless Fender Jazz Bass. In an interview on BBC Radio 4 (Playing Second Fiddle, aired July 2005), Flowers claimed the reason he came up with the twin bass line was that as a session musician, he would be paid double for playing two instruments on the same track, thus likely totalling his pay to £34 (equivalent to £400 in 2018)".
 

mavuser

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Could some of that variation be measurement technique? .

they are for sale from the same seller w the same measurement technique. although u raise an excellent point.

Also again pot values and other parts of the circuit were varying w the Starfire basses (especially double pickup versions neck pot) and I would not be stunned if the same were true w early JS basses
 

adorshki

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From Wikipedia, "The song is also noted for its twin interlocking bass lines played by Herbie Flowers on double bass and overdubbed on a stacked knob 1960 fretless Fender Jazz Bass. In an interview on BBC Radio 4 (Playing Second Fiddle, aired July 2005), Flowers claimed the reason he came up with the twin bass line was that as a session musician, he would be paid double for playing two instruments on the same track, thus likely totalling his pay to £34 (equivalent to £400 in 2018)".

In the meantime, I began to wonder if Knechtel may have actually played Manzarek's keyboard bass since his primary instrument was piano, and maybe the "dubbed bass" ascribed to him had been semantically misinterpreted for all these years.
Also remembered seeing his name associated with the Monkees (a band whose revelation of the extensive use of Wrecking Crew members was one of the most notorious pop "scandals" of '60's); so wondered if he may have actually been busy on their debut album when he was allegedly working on The Doors (actually easily accomplished but could demonstrate a potential conflict of scheduling).
OK, The Monkees was recorded entirely in the month of July '66, just before The Doors beginning in late August, but look what pops on the usual source, yet another example of a "doubled Dano bass" tune AND Knechtel on piano:

' "You Just May Be the One" (first recorded version)
Written by Michael Nesmith
Lead vocals: Michael Nesmith
Harmony vocals: Micky Dolenz
Guitars/dano basses: Peter Tork, James Burton, Glen Campbell, Al Casey, Mike Deasey
Bass: Robert West
Drums: Hal Blaine, Jim Gordon (!!)
Percussion: Gene Estes, Frank DeVito
Piano: Larry Knechtel
Recorded at RCA Victor Studios, Hollywood, California; July 18, 1966 (8:00 p.m.-12:00 a.m.)
Producer: Michael Nesmith
The song features the doubling of regular bass with Danelectro or "dano" bass; the dano bass' distinctive twang gave Nesmith's 1966 tracks a country flavor. The doubling of bass proved difficult to master as some 35 takes were needed before the backing track was completed.
The song was featured on three first-season episodes of The Monkees: "The Chaperone," "One Man Shy," and "Monkees a La Mode." '
 
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