Does a neck reset fix the real problem

[DThomasC]

Whenever we look at vintage - or even just old - Guilds we always look at the action and how much saddle is left. Because we know (assume) that a neck reset will be inevitable some day. But when we reset the neck are we really fixing the problem or merely accommodating it? By that I mean, was it really the neck that moved and needs to be moved back, or was it the top that lifted, so we reset the neck to compensate?

The reason I ask is that my poor old D25 is unplayable. It's also so beat up that it's really not worth the cost of a neck reset. OTOH, there's the Bridge Doctor. I could easily install this myself in an afternoon. If it fixes the actual problem (rather than accommodating it) then for less than $25, why not? Yes I would need to drill a hole in the bridge, but that wouldn't be the only scar on the old girl.

By all accounts, people that have tried the Bridge Doctor are happy with the results. Why isn't a similar solution used more often that the relatively invasive surgery of a neck reset?

 

[Bonneville88]

DTC, have read various pros & cons of the BD.
For me personally, if I like the guitar enough, I'll occasionally pop for a neck reset
because I want the instrument to be reasonably close to the way it was when it
was made - generally knowing full well I'll never get that money back in a sale.
Brings up the age-old and not-so-easily answerable questions of the who, what
where and why of "worth"

... and I'd sure like to see some good pics of your D25

 

[davismanLV]

A common, everyday (albeit nice) guitar can benefit from a Bridge Doctor with drilling a hole, vs. tearing the whole neck off. Personally I'd go for the BD, as would quite a few people here on the forum who've used them to great success. Fix vs. accommodate? That gets a bit dicey. I've had two joints repaired successfully, and 3 replaced successfully. It fixed the problem of pain and inability to move (bad action and can't play) so I'd consider that a success. Are they like my new and original joints? Of course not. We can't turn back the hands of time, we can only do what repairs are possible and accommodate for the rest. How does that sound?

 

[GAD]

I have a Guild 12-string with a bridge doctor and it plays like a dream, so if you love the guitar I'd say go for it.

 

[MLBob]

Why do you say you'd need to drill a hole in the bridge to install a Bridge Doctor? All that's required is inserting one BD brass pin in one of the holes already there for the bridge pins.

 

[Bonneville88]

Post from our own Chris Cozad with drawings, from AGF (where the BD discussion apparently rages from time to time)

The Acoustic Guitar Forum - View Single Post - More thoughts on the Bridge Doctor

The Acoustic Guitar Forum - A forum for acoustic guitar enthusiasts.

www.acousticguitarforum.com

Found a bunch of videos about the BD on youtube, here's a couple

 

[davismanLV]

Great video!! Thanks for posting that!! Very helpful and informative. They have two versions I believe. One that doesn't require drilling and one that does. This one looks good to me!!

 

[DThomasC]

... and I'd sure like to see some good pics of your D25

I suppose you'd like to see pics of my girlfriend too? Would this be something like a one-for-one exchange?

Why do you say you'd need to drill a hole in the bridge to install a Bridge Doctor? All that's required is inserting one BD brass pin in one of the holes already there for the bridge pins.

Yeah, the hole is ugly. A little less ugly if you fill it with something decorative. Never as ugly as those brass pins.

StewMac has been filling my mailbox with special offers. I could probably get them to send me a BD for less than the cost of a cheap bottle of rum.

 

[Bonneville88]

GF pics? Wasn’t thinking of that, but if she’s with the D25 I guess it’d be ok

 

[jfilm]

I tried the brass pin BD on my D40 to try to avoid a neck reset- I'm not sure how much it lowered the action. Also, there's a limit to how low your saddle can be if you get the brass pin version- I ended up sanding my saddle down, and the way the strings are held in by the brass pins mean the strings actually pass straight over the saddle without touching it- so if your saddle is already as low as it can go, the brass pin bridge doctor probably won't work, you'll need the drill-a-hole version. Needless to say I'm not using it anymore for the D-40.

 

[Br1ck]

By nature I am not a fan of the quick and cheap repair. It's like bondo over rust holes on a car. Bridge Doctors have their place I guess, as does the shaved bridge, but both complicate the proper fix down the road. The proper fix is not cheap. Often there is a bridge and bridge plate removal and replacement to flatten a top. More often than not, these repairs go hand in hand with a neck reset. You may as well get a refret too. So you end up spending a grand on an instrument that will give you two or three decades of use, or you can look to find another old guitar you can buy for six or eight hundred where in a few years will land you in the same place you are now.

You can buy some new very decent guitars for around $1200. So there you are. How far out you project owning a guitar is going to determine the course you take. I will never be convinced a mechanical devise exerting enough force to pull a top back into position has no effect on the sound. It may be good enough for you though.

 

[davismanLV]

I will never be convinced a mechanical devise exerting enough force to pull a top back into position has no effect on the sound. It may be good enough for you though.

And yet people swear by them and say the guitar sounds even better than ever. Not everyone but a whole lot of people do. "It might be good enough for you though." has got to be one of the most patronizing slams ever!! <I said with a big a$$ smile on my face>

 

[wileypickett]

There's a bit of confusion here. The BD isn't meant to forestall a neck reset; it's meant to reduce the bellying in the top. The fact that by doing this it also lowers the action and brings the intonation back where it should be means that (sometimes!) it also makes a neck reset unnecessary. But that's not what it's intended for.

When the BD was first introduced it was bench tested by a Martin repair person, who wrote about it for *Guild of American Lutherie*, a magazine I subscribe to. In the article he talked about a vintage Martin he'd repaired which had severe bowing to the top. He did what was typically done to correct the problem at the time: he replaced the bridge plate. (For $300.00.) But because "wood has memory," and the area bellying is so much bigger than the bridge plate, the bridge plate fix wasn't enough to prevent the top from bellying again over time. After a couple years his customer had to have him replace the bridge plate again. (Another $300.00.)

By the time he brought the guitar in for a third time, the BD had been around for a while. But his customer rejected having it installed, because he wanted to "keep everything original" (even though he was on his second non-original bridge plate).

In his article the author marveled at how this simple invention made these repairs cheap and easy and (so far as he could see), permanent, unlike replacing the bridge plate, which is expensive, hard to do, and often not permanent.

But he predicted in his artice that some people will never use them, either because they would be seen as not being original to the guitar, and that it therefore devalued the instrument, or because installing them required drilling a hole in the bridge (I'm not sure if the pin version existed yet), or both.

And his prediction was born out. People have been making the argument for years that "they don't address the real underlining problem," when that's exactly what they address (bellying of the top), or that the fix isn't permanent (it is for as long as you leave the BD in).

As I've said in other discussions of the BD, I swear by these little critters. I discovered them when my luthier recommended installing one on a Guild 12-string I had with a bellying problem. I was amazed when I got it back -- it was a completely different instrument. Since then, I've used them to correct bellying problems in nearly a dozen guitars and they've been effective in every one. In some cases I could also hear an improvement in sound, in others no change. But in no case has a guitar sounded worse with the BD. (I don't know if the guitars that sound better do so because of the BD itself, or because the top -- and thus the bridge -- are working the way they were meant to again.)

If you don't like the idea of a BD in your guitar, don't install them in your guitar. (It's your guitar, after all!)

But to argue that they don't do what they are intended to do is an argument you can't win: these have been in widespread use for 20+ years, are used in the repair shops of Breedlove and Taylor and many others, as well as in many independent repair shops. Stewart-MacDonald sells a ton of 'em.

If they didn't work, they wouldn't still be around.

 

[wonkenstein]

The Bridge Doctor is great and does exactly what it is designed to do - reduces the adverse effects of a bellied top. Try that first, it's way less expensive and far less invasive than a neck reset. But if your guitar really does need a neck reset the Bridge Doctor isn't going to completely make your tough playing action problem go away and neither will shaving the bridge down as you'd just be putting off the inevitable. The only only way you can really improve the neck angle (if it's not just a bellied top) and get better action is to reset the neck. With the right neck angle you'd be able to rest a straight edge on your fingerboard and it would also rest comfortably kissing the top of the bridge (not the bridge saddle) where the strings break over. If it was a screw in mortise and tenon like a Taylor you'd have it shimmed and the neck angle reset in less than a half hour. Traditional dovetail neck joints just take a bit longer.

 

[Walter Broes]

Neck resets, when done properly, are a great fix. And a lot of guitars need them, the geometry of a guitar changes, and that's a combination of the top bellying, the back stretching, and the neck pulling forward.

 

[Bill Ashton]

Only thing I can see against it, theoretically, is that by pushing up on the top it may inhibit the top from vibrating; but Mr. Pickett's narrative rebutts that worry. I may have to look at my son's GAD25 that has some type of similar problem, be a great fix

 

[lcjones]

A little late to the conversation here. Though perhaps, someone can benefit.

Re: JLD - BD's: I ordered two the other day. One for my '76 F212 and the other for my '80 D212. Both with belly bulge. I should have them tomorrow (9.23.20)

Long story.......

I was told by a Certified Martin Luthier that my '74 D25 needed a neck reset. I was not eager to accommodate the proposal. I hem-hawed around about it for a while. Studied the situation. I even asked Greg Voros at Gruhn Guitar in Nashville about doing a neck reset. But Greg was priced pretty much out of my bracket. $1200.00. Playing got worse on the D25, so I opted for the Certified Martin Luthier plan. $450.00. And 3 months.

The Certified Martin Luthier used up every bit of three months to do this neck reset. And complained about it being a Guild in the process. And lauded how Martins are so much better to deal with. Granted, USA Guild's are tank tough and built to take a beating. Maybe to the point of overkill. But the Certified Martin Luthier did me no favors. And did a crappy job. See photos below of the D25. Now the fret board over the 14th at the body takes a nose dive.

And guess what. I wasn't paying close enough attention to things. Belly bulge on the D25. The BD would have most likely "done me right".

If you think you need a neck reset, think twice. Think three times. Think it over *real* good. Don't do it unless it's absolutely necessary.

Anyway, I'll do the BD's on my 12's and see how they play. I think I can get the D212 this coming weekend. If anyone is interested, I'll do a bit of write-up, though, I'm sure there's plenty of them on the tube somewhere. If I'm happy, I'll pop for a third BD and do the D25 anyway.

Chap,

 

[catan]

I am very interested in your progress sir.

 

[jfilm]

A little late to the conversation here. Though perhaps, someone can benefit.

Re: JLD - BD's: I ordered two the other day. One for my '76 F212 and the other for my '80 D212. Both with belly bulge. I should have them tomorrow (9.23.20)

Long story.......

I was told by a Certified Martin Luthier that my '74 D25 needed a neck reset. I was not eager to accommodate the proposal. I hem-hawed around about it for a while. Studied the situation. I even asked Greg Voros at Gruhn Guitar in Nashville about doing a neck reset. But Greg was priced pretty much out of my bracket. $1200.00. Playing got worse on the D25, so I opted for the Certified Martin Luthier plan. $450.00. And 3 months.

The Certified Martin Luthier used up every bit of three months to do this neck reset. And complained about it being a Guild in the process. And lauded how Martins are so much better to deal with. Granted, USA Guild's are tank tough and built to take a beating. Maybe to the point of overkill. But the Certified Martin Luthier did me no favors. And did a crappy job. See photos below of the D25. Now the fret board over the 14th at the body takes a nose dive.

And guess what. I wasn't paying close enough attention to things. Belly bulge on the D25. The BD would have most likely "done me right".

If you think you need a neck reset, think twice. Think three times. Think it over *real* good. Don't do it unless it's absolutely necessary.

Anyway, I'll do the BD's on my 12's and see how they play. I think I can get the D212 this coming weekend. If anyone is interested, I'll do a bit of write-up, though, I'm sure there's plenty of them on the tube somewhere. If I'm happy, I'll pop for a third BD and do the D25 anyway.

Chap,

I went through something similar with my D40 - I wanted to do everything I could before committing to a neck reset. Also couldn't find many affordable options, and a couple people I called refused to do Guilds. But I went in reverse - tried the BD first. It reduced the belly and improved the sound, for sure. But the action was still high.

So I found a luthier that would do the neck reset and went for it. Action is perfect now. Fingerboard, like yours, takes a "nose dive". However, I did a quick search on this topic, and it seems that shimming the fretboard is the only answer for this when the neck angle is so out of whack? And it seems that the jury is out on whether to shim or not to shim - a lot of people dislike the look of the shim, but of course, will want to shim if they need access to those upper frets. Like I said, this was a quick search, and some repair people were chiming in saying that the vast majority don't shim, as they don't play much up there anyway. Shims also must add to the cost for the added work involved. In my case I wonder why my repair person didn't ask though. Seems like something the customer should decide? Anyway, I've got the action where I want, and I'm adding the BD again because I liked how it made the guitar sound.

From experience, I learned that the BD should not be cranked too much, hoping for miracles such as lowering the action. The more it's cranked, the more the sound gets restricted. It just needs to be tightened, and if the sound goes nasaly, backed off again.

 

[DeArmond Hammer]

A Bridge Doctor flattened the belly on my Simon & Patrick cedar-top 12-string. I installed the kind with 6 brass bridge pins and no drilling. It's easily removable if I ever want the belly to bulge again.

The Bridge Doctor won't fix high string action if the action is high because of the neck angle. It's a fix for belly bulge.