String Break Question

midnightright

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Does anybody know what happens when you break a string with the capo on? It’s something I’ve never done, and always been curious about.

Now, until very recently, I had done all of my tuning—which is where I break 99.9% of my strings (usually the ‘G,’ which I’m told actually has the thinnest core)—prior to placing the capo on the neck. This usually happens when going back and forth between drastic tunings.

So, I’m just wondering how different it is, if at all? Thanks in advance.
 

adorshki

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Does anybody know what happens when you break a string with the capo on? It’s something I’ve never done, and always been curious about.
It's said to be a much harder death than that caused by guillotine.
Akin to the cruel and unusual punishment imposed by a botched hanging.
(I'm sorry, something got me on a roll and I couldn't resist.)
:glee:
 

Christopher Cozad

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If you are referring to that moment of terror, when your life flashes before your eyes, as you make that fateful last turn of the machine head and... SNAP!!! ...

A capo can help speed recovery after a break, even assist with returning your heart back to normal rhythm more quickly *IF* the string broke somewhere north of the capo (nut, tuning post, etc). In such a case the string is trapped or pinned against the fret behind the capo, Precisely where all rebellious strings should be.

However, if the break occurred at the saddle, well, capo or no capo, it’s just never pretty.
 

Nuuska

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.....
(I'm sorry, something got me on a roll and I couldn't resist.)
:glee:


Like this?

Teilaus.jpg
 

midnightright

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Oh, God! That was funny... Yes, I realize how ridiculous it is; one thing, partly due to my back, I have a tendency to play with eyeballs inches off the fretboard. However, this is usually while playing. And yes, it most commonly breaks at the tuning peg. Sounds lovely, doesn't it? Tune from G, down to E, & then back up again... Rinse & repeat! Presto. :)
 

Westerly Wood

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i remember as a kid, tuning my first steel string, a lawsuit Takamine, maple b/s. not that that part matters...

b string broke and split end hit me in the eye. ouch.

i still tune the b string a little leery. like that moment has stayed with me to this day. i think my left eye closes a bit whenever i change strings. just sort of naturally.
 

adorshki

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Oh, God! That was funny... Yes, I realize how ridiculous it is; one thing, partly due to my back, I have a tendency to play with eyeballs inches off the fretboard. However, this is usually while playing. And yes, it most commonly breaks at the tuning peg....Tune from G, down to E, & then back up again... Rinse & repeat! Presto. :)
OK, moral debates over cruelty to strings aside, and since the string has already met its unfortunate end, let's dissect the issue, so to speak:
Do you use the near universal technique of somehow "locking" the string at the posthole, something like this? :
gD2slMF3ZSzg2jS_yxHRldlFsVnZhQL4qs0sHkS6Pt0i3AHir73nRrosPLQyzVcvTCtRWz8rDJBDueGF5PAT8ckD_n9Rfpo

I think it's pretty self evident that this creates a kink at a point of high stress on the string, and as you're probably aware, a kink is weak point in any kind of wire.
It's kind of analogous to the knot in the modern hangman's noose being designed to ensure the neck breaks. :shocked:
Anyway, the metal at the kink has become stressed at close to, if not beyond, its plasticity limit.
So it's gonna break with just a couple of repetitions of increase/decrease of tension, period, as you've noticed. (see "Deformation theory" in that plasticity link above)
I had the problem on Stringeater, my first cheapo flattop and wasn't even changing tuning, but doing a lot of fine tuning 'cause it had lousy intonation.
Partial fix: Use a single of the next gauge up that's used for that string.
(D'A and GHS offer the best range of singles to sub into sets that I know of. I still buy an .025 single to sub into their EJ16 set, and guess why? Because that's the way Guild offered that set when I got my D25 in '96, and up through close of Westerly at least, too)
And yes it was the G that always broke on Stringeater until I started using .025's, so when I discovered Guild also used that as the stock gauge in L350 sets, I said to myself "Aha! They get it!", although a few years back I realized that it was actually one of those small details that contributed to overall string-to-string balance and offered that tiny extra bit of midrange "oomph".
Anyway, Stringeater still ate the G at the posthole and it was getting kind of costly for me in a time of marginal employment until I realized what I explained above: the kink is a point of weakness at a point of great stress.
So I developed the painstaking technique of winding the strings using only the winds of the string around the post to provide friction to maintain tension.
Involves tricky method of inserting string into posthole and keeping light tension on the length between fingers and saddle right while rotating peg with other hand.
You need to allow for enough length between right "tension" hand and the post hole to allow the string to wrap around at least one and a half times, and I even usually back off a bit and then manually bend the string where it's coming out of the post hole to help give it a gradual radius as opposed to a tight kink. You might wind up doing that a couple of times while getting it "right".
At this point:
r8ArAC4o5WXBdi47xXVmaYAOxzESrOznMQaPOCz7LnQ7yfr1FnSZc8A1tNDZ-8y7xeWV-8m54QRaA6TnCmjIZYeHc4lcMPhirf44t73BVg

what you would do is start turning the post while ensuring that end coming out at the right near the button doesn't get a kink. That's when you might back off a bit during the process to push some of the "free end" back into the hole to help create the "radius".
(It's a very small radius, you just want to avoid making a tight kink right at the edge of the posthole)
What's tricky and painstaking is that you may also need to adjust to make sure there's not so much wire on the "nut" side of the hole as to create more wraps than the post can hold.
Balanced with allowing enough length to coming in from that side to ensure you have enough length to get enough wraps, too.
I also take pains to ensure the wraps don't overlap while winding around the post. 3-4 is ideal, but the E is a bit thick and might only have enough room on the post for about 2.
Anyway, when you're done, strings are held by pure friction and have a little room to "stretch" at the post hole rim.
No more snaps at the peg.
I think this also enhances fine tuning.
I've found it's easiest to do while sitting on a chair and propping the guitar between my legs, soundhole side out.
And I've gotten pretty quick at it since experimenting with different strings on the F65ce over the last year, but it still takes a good 1/2 hour start to finish, more when I take the opportunity to give 'er a good clean and polish, too.

However, if the break occurred at the saddle, well, capo or no capo, it’s just never pretty.
After taming (but never completely curing) Stringeater's voracious appetite for G strings, I was only too happy to have 'em break at the saddle after a fairly useful service life.
I could then thread the broken end through the ball and reinstall the same string pretty quickly which was very useful in the field at that busking stage of my life, and saved me from having to mix a brand new string into a 2/3 used set.
Fringe benefit of the "radius wrap" and coiling the loose end at the post instead of clipping: the peghead end of the sting was still long and strong enough to rewrap at a new starting point.
Once this process is mastered you're ready for Advanced String Theory 3.0
 
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Nuuska

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i remember as a kid, tuning my first steel string, a lawsuit Takamine, maple b/s. not that that part matters...

b string broke and split end hit me in the eye. ouch.

i still tune the b string a little leery. like that moment has stayed with me to this day. i think my left eye closes a bit whenever i change strings. just sort of naturally.


No kidding really - a snapping string can be quite dangerous. About 50 years ago tuning a 12-string Höfner - octave-G ( if my shaky memory serves me right - could've been a B-string ) broke at nut and it went right through the laminated top - about 5mm deep. Must have been just the correct angle to do so. Just think how deep into skin that might go - or your eyeballs.

And yes - first time with new string - I allways lean back a bit.
 

davismanLV

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Yeah, as gjmalcyon stated above, there's not really any reason with a well designed and hour-glass shaped post to "lock" strings. I also use the Taylor method. Those strings aren't going anywhere. Remove all strings, clean guitar and condition bridge and fretboard (if necessary) and then set all the strings in their holes (pinless) or pin them, then measure, cut, do a 90 degree bend with needle nose pliers (my own added step), hook into the post and tighten while holding tension. Works like a charm!!

Since I have more guitars these days, it means less tuning and retuning and I can't even remember the last time I had a string break, but now that I've said that, it'll happen soon!! :encouragement:

p.s. - one advantage of setting all the strings at the bridge before you take them up and thread them through the post, is you can reach your hand into the soundhole and feel at the bridge plate to make sure all your ball ends are seated properly. I can barely do this because my hands are kinda big, but I still shove it in there carefully to make sure.
 
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F312

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Yeah, as gjmalcyon stated above, there's not really any reason with a well designed and hour-glass shaped post to "lock" strings. I also use the Taylor method. Those strings aren't going anywhere. Remove all strings, clean guitar and condition bridge and fretboard (if necessary) and then set all the strings in their holes (pinless) or pin them, then measure, cut, do a 90 degree bend with needle nose pliers (my own added step), hook into the post and tighten while holding tension. Works like a charm!!

Since I have more guitars these days, it means less tuning and retuning and I can't even remember the last time I had a string break, but now that I've said that, it'll happen soon!! :encouragement:
Ditto, however, I snip after the strings are all on. the Last five years I set the guitar on a table and use a string winder.

Ralph
 

walrus

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I've used the "Adorshki Friction Method" for decades, I just didn't know that's what it was called... :encouragement:

walrus
 

adorshki

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do a 90 degree bend with needle nose pliers (my own added step), hook into the post and tighten while holding tension. Works like a charm!!
And that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

Since I have more guitars these days, it means less tuning and retuning and I can't even remember the last time I had a string break, but now that I've said that, it'll happen soon!! :encouragement:
I do recall that you like alternate tunings and that yes, you like to leave a given guitar in a tuning now that you have that luxury.
But I'm sure that repeated tightening/loosening of the string which doesn't have any "wiggle room" at the post is what actually does 'em in.

but I still shove it in there carefully to make sure.
d153dc8f968c8dee47dc0b423bfc0b9f.jpg

Nonetheless, yes. If one must shove, shove carefully.
 

davismanLV

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Ditto, however, I snip after the strings are all on. the Last five years I set the guitar on a table and use a string winder.

Ralph
Oh yes, I do an extra trim snip to keep errant ends that catch on clothes and flesh and cause trouble. I, too, use a table and chair and have a roll out mat made for protecting the guitar and a neck brace that flips to adjust to the depth of the guitar. A string winder is mandatory. It's a tedious job, but trying to coordinate tension and keeping strings and ends from going everywhere white operating a hand winder is just a bit too much for me to handle at once. So, yeah....... what Ralph said for sure!!!

Al, a simple 90 degree bend is any worse than having the string come out and around yet another string before coming back to the post seems just as stressful. I've had no problems with the bend so far. And the strings that do break (rarely) do so elsewhere. Do your strings break a lot with the other method?? Wondering, is all......
 

walrus

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Tom, the newly named "Adorshki Friction Method" that I have used for decades is pretty simple to do, of course. It's one reason I find it so attractive! I have no memory of ever breaking any strings, ever.

But - a huge caveat - I change them every month! I play a lot, and I love the feel and sound of new strings and a new pick! So that explains my lack of string breakage more than the technique. When I was much younger, I didn't change them so much, but I really don't recall breaking too many strings.

walrus
 

midnightright

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Huh, I had considered going up in gauge string for that, but then, I’d been playing mediums for years on my Guilds—since then, lights (however, this could change if I get my Guild back..). Which set do you buy in order to achieve this? I never tried Guild brand strings, as I recall asking a sales guy behind the counter once—before I’d even begin playing acoustic (didn’t think my hands could handle it based on the old classical nylon string folks had had lying around the house: most likely from the 70’s)—if they were anything special. To which, he replied, “No.”

I do not use the Martin method, though I’ve got nothing against it, and clearly others have that preference, as I believe the last several used guitars have come string that way. And changing the strings—in particular, getting them unwrapped so to speak, at the tuning post, has proved rather futile! I’m sure there’s a better way, but I normally wind up cussing & cutting my fingertips trying to get them off...

The way I had changed strings up until a few years ago, when I got an old Yamaha, which had grooves in the center of the post, making it look more challenging to fit my method into it, was to wrap it in such a way as results in something quite similar to yours (though I never knew it). And I did it primarily for the way it looked and felt visually—pleasing, if you will. In fact, a famous luthier noted upon taking a look at one of my guitars, “Look at how NEAT that is!”

But really all I do is what was shown me when I bought my first imported Strat. When finished, it looks like the part of string that is cut, has one layer of string going above it, and the rest (number of wraps—usually two), go below. In order to achieve this, I manually wind the string, and as the first pass occurs, I push the part of the string that is cut underneath the other existing string—& then when that has wound through one revolution, I let the rest of them go normally, or naturally (don’t push down) such that the part that is cut is going above the rest of the wraps. I’m sure it’s quite common, as the shop I got the guitar from had a Fender Authorized Repair Shop next door (it was full service for other instruments, as well).

But I always wrap the G extra—& that seems to help, SOME (but certainly not all). Now, as I said, since getting the Yamaha, I’ve had to just wrap them normally—no layer of string (top) sitting above the portion of string cut. And I gotta say, I’ve broken fewer strings. But this could also be in part due to a few things: I’ve avoided playing in some of those tunings as often, and rarely, if ever do the exact move I cited as an example for breaking (e to g, back to e). Which is generally when it breaks (tuning up; I think all but once).

Also , I now use primarily lighter gauge strings—John Pearce Phosphor Bronze—after using Elixir (not sure what they were, but Nano or Poly web) for an eternity. And I don’t change them nearly as often as I should. Another thing, is that I had acquired a larger collection of guitars for some period in the last number of years, whereas before it was almost always one, and only very occasionally two.

So for me, too many variables to chalk it up exclusively to the difference in string winding technique, and anyway, I always strive for the perfection that you seem to achieve. Never used a string winder. Never pre-wrapped around the post. Kills my back every time as I change them in the same seated position as playing, and being a little guy, I have to reach..,
 

adorshki

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Al, a simple 90 degree bend is any worse than having the string come out and around yet another string before coming back to the post seems just as stressful.
Not sure I understand "around yet another string", but in my technique I keep adjusting the radius of that bend right where the string enters the hole from the nut instead of putting any type of sharp bend in one spot, and the rotation of the post gradually tightens it.
There are no "overlaps", or feedback into the hole, only successive coils below the posthole.
Just like this:
string-coiling.jpg

You can even see that string is showing a little bit of "radius" that extends wider than the coil below it 'cause it's not a sharp kink at the hole, it'll gradually tighten up as the string is brought up to pitch.
But that acts like a buffer for the ups and downs of tuning changes.
I've had no problems with the bend so far. And the strings that do break (rarely) do so elsewhere. Do your strings break a lot with the other method?? Wondering, is all......
I haven't used "the other method" for like 38 years...in fact I don't remember exactly how I did it on Stringeater before I realized I needed to "fix" the problem, and that was my first steel string. So I've done it that way ever since: "If it works don't change it".
Before that I had classicals and breakage was never the problem.
But if it works for you I'm not trying to argue it, only explain the rationale of my method.
Early on with the D25 I used to get some breakage on the G at the saddle simply because I'd play a set to death but even that subsided after a couple of years as I started changing 'em more often and started getting a little lighter-handed style.
 
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