Advice on a slightly reverse bowed neck

Rayk

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After seeing the neck pic I’ll just spew forth words .

First YUCK ! the dreaded 14 fret fingerboard hump !

I don’t see no back bow at all ( no I didn’t read all the comments )

Yes ! I’m gunna say it again the action is way to low . Saddle is scrap .

Will it need a neck reset ? Maybe .

Removing the frets to make it playable ? Sacrilege !

I’m poor but even so I’d fix the guitar up as it looks pretty decent otherwise .

The combined repairs would no doubt make the guitar more enjoyable to play but sound better also and that will bring endless smiles . 😊

I’d like to see a straight edge on it but Mr Humpty Dumpty frets might get in the ways. 😊
 

Wilmywood

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After seeing the neck pic I’ll just spew forth words .

First YUCK ! the dreaded 14 fret fingerboard hump !

I don’t see no back bow at all ( no I didn’t read all the comments )

Yes ! I’m gunna say it again the action is way to low . Saddle is scrap .

Will it need a neck reset ? Maybe .

Removing the frets to make it playable ? Sacrilege !

I’m poor but even so I’d fix the guitar up as it looks pretty decent otherwise .

The combined repairs would no doubt make the guitar more enjoyable to play but sound better also and that will bring endless smiles . 😊

I’d like to see a straight edge on it but Mr Humpty Dumpty frets might get in the ways. 😊
Yes it has the hump.
There is no back bow I wrote the headline before really looking into it.
The action is the action, there is no tension on the truss rod. The saddle is exactly the same size as the one on my '72 G37.
It will NOT get a neck reset.
Sacrilege is not making it playable.
But thanks for your comments.
 

Rayk

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Yes it has the hump.
There is no back bow I wrote the headline before really looking into it.
The action is the action, there is no tension on the truss rod. The saddle is exactly the same size as the one on my '72 G37.
It will NOT get a neck reset.
Sacrilege is not making it playable.
But thanks for your comments.
10-4 ! 😊🤗
 

Nuuska

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Dropped the G37 at the luthier this afternoon. He had a look at it and said the first order of business is to dress the higher frets to get some of the hump out of them. Then raise the saddle a bit if needed, and go from there.
I told him I wasn't looking for resale value, just a playable guitar.
We'll see what happens.
Your luthier seems to be on the right track . . .


My previous post :

One more try . . .
You might try tighten the truss rod a bit AND raising the saddle - with a shim first to try out.


Did he comment about the ramped pinholes?
 

Wilmywood

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Your luthier seems to be on the right track . . .


My previous post :

One more try . . .
You might try tighten the truss rod a bit AND raising the saddle - with a shim first to try out.


Did he comment about the ramped pinholes?
They're not 'ramped' any more than my '72 G37 is and the saddles are identical. A taller saddle is down the list a few.
 

Nuuska

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On your post - #8 - is this picture, which clearly shows ramped e-string pinhole.

1677784774031.png
 

Nuuska

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One more thing - why are you comparing the measurements to another guitar?

I can see no reason why there could not be variations beteween production years.
 

West R Lee

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They're not 'ramped' any more than my '72 G37 is and the saddles are identical. A taller saddle is down the list a few.
On a side note Wil, these are the kinds of threads I really enjoy. I understand that as the OP, you simply want your guitar playable, and obviously, as the guitar's owner, you have all the say in how to achieve that playability.

I guess in that I've been somewhat involved in precision maintenance all of my life, I only measure things in thousandths of an inch, and it's been that way since my early 20's. Having said that, I am not a guitar repair guy, nor will I ever be, but I don't mind taking on a few of the more simple tasks involved in maintaining a guitar.

So though you may at times get a tad frustrated with various responses, just know that for some of us, we are learning right alone side of you. Most of us who offer something, offer from our personal experience, keeping in mind that many times, our experience is limited. None of us know it all.

So I will look forward to the resolution of this issue and will be very curious to see/read what your repair guy has found, and done to correct it.

When I look at the picture of your guitar neck (and I've spent a bit of time staring at it), and again, don't do it because I sure could be wrong, but I would think that by tightening the truss rod a tad, it would help to align back into straightness. But at the point, especially with you wanting to run very light gauge strings (and the associated increased string deflection), in order to get the relief you need, you would indeed need a taller saddle. It sounds as if that's the direction you're heading. But I'm just thinking out loud. And I don't mind admitting that I've never personally adjusted a truss rod to remedy a real neck issue, only to do minor adjustments on relief.

West
 
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Wilmywood

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On a side note Wil, these are the kinds of threads I really enjoy. I understand that as the OP, you simply want your guitar playable, and obviously, as the guitar's owner, you have all the say in how to achieve that playability.

I guess in that I've been somewhat involved in precision maintenance all of my life, I only measure things in thousandths of an inch, and it's been that way since my early 20's. Having said that, I am not a guitar repair guy, nor will I ever be, but I don't mind taking on a few of the more simple tasks involved in maintaining a guitar.

So though you may at times get a tad frustrated with various responses, just know that for some of us, we are learning right alone side of you. Most of us who offer something, offer from our personal experience, keeping in mind that many times, our experience is limited. None of us know it all.

So I will look forward to the resolution of this issue and will be very curious to see/read what your repair guy has found, and done to correct it.

When I look at the picture of your guitar neck (and I've spent a bit of time staring at it), and again, don't do it because I sure could be wrong, but I would think that by tightening the truss rod a tad, it would help to align back into straightness. But at the point, especially with you wanting to run very light gauge strings (and the associated increased string deflection), in order to get the relief you need, you would indeed need a taller saddle. It sounds as if that's the direction you're heading. But I'm just thinking out loud. And I don't mind admitting that I've never personally adjusted a truss rod to remedy a real neck issue, only to do minor adjustments on relief.

West
I've adjusted truss rod on my '72 G37 plenty, it takes about an 1/8 turn to go from summer to winter here in NC and keep the action I want. I tried to put a bit of tension on this one, but, as you look at the nut in that photo, tightening the truss rod does straighten the neck but makes the nut lower in relation to the hump, making the buzz worse. And again, my '72 has an identical saddle to this '78 and suffers no issues because of it. A taller saddle for this one will only come into play as a last resort.

PS ... on another unrelated note, I have advanced (18 years) rheumatoid arthritis and I require extra light gauge strings (.010-.047) AND a VERY low action to be able to play at all. Any heavier strings (or higher action) and I get string buzz as a result of not being able to take the strings all the way to the fret board. The tension on even a light (.012-.053) or a standard height action set is too much.
 
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Rayk

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I've adjusted truss rods on my '72 G37 plenty, it takes about an 1/8 turn to go from summer to winter here in NC and keep the action I want. I tried to put a bit of tension on this one, but, as you look at the nut in that photo, tightening the truss rod does straighten the neck but makes the nut lower in relation to the hump, making the buzz worse. And again, my '72 has an identical saddle to this '78 and suffers no issues because of it. A taller saddle for this one will only come into play as a last resort.

PS ... on another unrelated note, I have advanced (18 years) rheumatoid arthritis and I require extra light gauge strings (.010-.047) AND a VERY low action to be able to play at all. Any heavier and I get string buzz as a result of not being able to take the strings all the way to the fret board. The tension on even a light (.012-.053) or a standard height action set is too much.
Where in NC are you if I may ask ?
 

West R Lee

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Topic related. But what would TE know? :giggle: Though I would agree, TE isn't dealing with a "hump".



West
 

Wilmywood

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Topic related. But what would TE know? :giggle: Though I would agree, TE isn't dealing with a "hump".



West

I am in full agreement with him. I'll put up with a bit of buzz to get the action nice and low. That, and luthiers (God love 'em and we gotta have 'em) are not gods 😁
 
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Wilmywood

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One more thing - why are you comparing the measurements to another guitar?

I can see no reason why there could not be variations beteween production years.
There is no reason why variations between production years cannot occur. However, I just happen to have an (almost) identical guitar (the '72 has a mahogany neck, the '78 neck is maple) from a previous (and first year of that model) model year I can use for comparison. I have had it since new, and it plays like a dream. I want this one to play the same. Not unreasonable, IMO. Your mileage may vary.
 

Wilmywood

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On your post - #8 - is this picture, which clearly shows ramped e-string pinhole.

1677784774031.png
Clearly? No.
I think what you see as a ramped pin hole is actually an .010 e string that has a shorter winding around the ball end that does not come all the way out of the bridge plate. In addition, that end of the saddle is shorter than the center creating an optical illusion.
The '72 looks exactly the same, whether anyone thinks that is an apt comparison or not.
 
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GardMan

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Wilmywood,
First, thank-you for explaining why you prefer to play extra light strings... it helps us (me) understand why you immediately dismissed several suggestions that going to heavier gauge strings could be used to remedy a back bow of the neck (when we thought that was the issue).

The next thing I would like to point out is that comparing saddle height between two 50 year old guitars is not a valid judge of how the guitars should be setup... even if the guitars were the same year, same model. Even, really, if they were sister guitars made in the same batch on the same day. There are probably many reasons for this, but several that come to mind are, first, the guitars were made largely by hand in the 1970s, and there would be slight variations from one to the next. For example, when attaching the necks, a very slight difference in the neck angle would affect the optimum height of the bridge and saddle. It's my understanding from LTG members that worked in the Westerly factory that Guild actually had bins of bridges and saddles with different heights, and after the neck was set, would pick the bridge that "fit" the neck angle, and then pick the appropriate saddle. Another reason is that these guitars are made of wood and glue. Each is an individual, unique instrument, and they will age differently. No two pieces of wood will age identically... the necks will bend to varying degrees, the neck joints will "give" to string tension to varying degrees over the years, and the tops will "belly" under string tension to various degrees based on the characteristics of the unique pieces of wood from which they were made.

I own examples of just this situation... I have have two 1994 Guild DV-72s, built just a few months apart: a DV-72NT with a top date in Feb 1994, and a DV-72MK with a top date from Apr 1994. The only difference in these guitars is the color of the reconstituted stone inlay... the NT is turquoise, the MK is green malachite. The 72NT has a saddle that measures (with digital caliper) 0.183" under the E string. The saddle of the 72MK measures 0.110" under the E string. Yet, the 72NT, with the taller saddle, has LOWER action (0.095" at the 12th fret E) than the 72MK with the lower saddle (0.10" 12th fret E).

That said... here is how I would approach setting up your guitar to meet YOUR needs, with a disclaimer that I am NOT a trained luthier or guitar tech, but have been doing my own setups (incl making nuts, saddles, adjusting truss rods, and minor fret work)on my Guilds for more than 10 years.

First, I would adjust the truss rod to give the appropriate relief USING YOUR PREFERRED STRINGS. IIRC, the "factory spec" for neck relief during the Westerly years was 0.006-0.012". Relief is measured by capoing the 1st fret, fretting at the 14ths (where the neck joins the body) and measuring the gap between the top of the 7th fret (or 8th, depending on how you talk to) and the bottom of the E string. Fingerstyle players tend to prefer flatter necks, as the bottom end of the range, hard-driving bluegrass players often prefer more relief... near the top end of the range. For you, I'd probably try the low end first (0.006" or so), tho' the extra light gauge strings MIGHT need it to be a bit more.

The next thing I would do is adjust the nut slots... IMO, this is a critical aspect of how "easy" a guitar is to play... particularly the nut action of the treble strings. A common way to judge "action" at the nut is to put a capo between the 2nd and 3rd frets, and then look for a TINY gap between the strings and the top of the first fret. Smaller gaps under the treble strings, larger (but still tiny) gaps under the bass strings. Some judge the gap by eye, some judge by tapping the strings right above the first fret. If the string "clicks" against the fret, there is a gap, if it doesn't click, the string is resting on the fret. They listen for the click. The techs I used for setups before I started doing my own, and everything I see on the web will always leave a tiny gap between each of the strings and the 1st fret.

In my experience, (if the frets are decently level and in good shape) action at the nut can be lower than most techs will set, particularly on the treble strings... and this slight difference of only a few 1000ths of an inch, makes a world of difference in how easy a guitar is to play (particularly when barring chords near the nut, which I do a lot).

I judge the action at the nut by sound... with a capo between 2nd and 3rd frets (string is resting on the second), I pluck the string with a pick. Then, I fret the string at the first fret and pluck it again. IF THE PITCH CHANGED when I fret at the first, there is a gap, if not, the string is resting on the fret. If it buzzes, the string is VERY CLOSE. I use the pitch change (or lack thereof) and/or buzzing to decide when my action is "optimum" for me. Starting with all the strings clearing the first (that TINY gap I mentioned), I will use nut slot files to lower the treble e and b strings until they are JUST BARELY TOUCHING the first fret when capoed between 2 and 3 (no change in pitch when fretted at 1). The g string is lowered until, when fretted at 1, I hear a SLIGHT BUZZ when plucked, meaning its very close to the first fret, but not touching. The three bass strings are left with tiny gaps that I gauge by eye... with the gaps getting slightly bigger in the progression from 4th (D) to 6th (E).

Adjusting the saddle would be the third step... AFTER setting the relief and action at the nut. For you, I might first try setting the action at the 12th fret at 6/64" (E) and 4/64" (e)... and have you play. See how it feels, see how it plays. Can you fret the chords you want? does it buzz more than you like? If there isn't unacceptable buzzing, I might try dropping the action further... maybe to 5/64" on the E.

Anyway, sorry for the excessively long post... But, that is how I would approach the problem. I guess your tech/luthier will likely approach it much the same way (tho' I would bet he leaves the nut slots higher than I would). Good luck in your efforts... and enjoy making music with your Guilds!
 

West R Lee

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Wilmywood,
First, thank-you for explaining why you prefer to play extra light strings... it helps us (me) understand why you immediately dismissed several suggestions that going to heavier gauge strings could be used to remedy a back bow of the neck (when we thought that was the issue).

The next thing I would like to point out is that comparing saddle height between two 50 year old guitars is not a valid judge of how the guitars should be setup... even if the guitars were the same year, same model. Even, really, if they were sister guitars made in the same batch on the same day. There are probably many reasons for this, but several that come to mind are, first, the guitars were made largely by hand in the 1970s, and there would be slight variations from one to the next. For example, when attaching the necks, a very slight difference in the neck angle would affect the optimum height of the bridge and saddle. It's my understanding from LTG members that worked in the Westerly factory that Guild actually had bins of bridges and saddles with different heights, and after the neck was set, would pick the bridge that "fit" the neck angle, and then pick the appropriate saddle. Another reason is that these guitars are made of wood and glue. Each is an individual, unique instrument, and they will age differently. No two pieces of wood will age identically... the necks will bend to varying degrees, the neck joints will "give" to string tension to varying degrees over the years, and the tops will "belly" under string tension to various degrees based on the characteristics of the unique pieces of wood from which they were made.

I own examples of just this situation... I have have two 1994 Guild DV-72s, built just a few months apart: a DV-72NT with a top date in Feb 1994, and a DV-72MK with a top date from Apr 1994. The only difference in these guitars is the color of the reconstituted stone inlay... the NT is turquoise, the MK is green malachite. The 72NT has a saddle that measures (with digital caliper) 0.183" under the E string. The saddle of the 72MK measures 0.110" under the E string. Yet, the 72NT, with the taller saddle, has LOWER action (0.095" at the 12th fret E) than the 72MK with the lower saddle (0.10" 12th fret E).

That said... here is how I would approach setting up your guitar to meet YOUR needs, with a disclaimer that I am NOT a trained luthier or guitar tech, but have been doing my own setups (incl making nuts, saddles, adjusting truss rods, and minor fret work)on my Guilds for more than 10 years.

First, I would adjust the truss rod to give the appropriate relief USING YOUR PREFERRED STRINGS. IIRC, the "factory spec" for neck relief during the Westerly years was 0.006-0.012". Relief is measured by capoing the 1st fret, fretting at the 14ths (where the neck joins the body) and measuring the gap between the top of the 7th fret (or 8th, depending on how you talk to) and the bottom of the E string. Fingerstyle players tend to prefer flatter necks, as the bottom end of the range, hard-driving bluegrass players often prefer more relief... near the top end of the range. For you, I'd probably try the low end first (0.006" or so), tho' the extra light gauge strings MIGHT need it to be a bit more.

The next thing I would do is adjust the nut slots... IMO, this is a critical aspect of how "easy" a guitar is to play... particularly the nut action of the treble strings. A common way to judge "action" at the nut is to put a capo between the 2nd and 3rd frets, and then look for a TINY gap between the strings and the top of the first fret. Smaller gaps under the treble strings, larger (but still tiny) gaps under the bass strings. Some judge the gap by eye, some judge by tapping the strings right above the first fret. If the string "clicks" against the fret, there is a gap, if it doesn't click, the string is resting on the fret. They listen for the click. The techs I used for setups before I started doing my own, and everything I see on the web will always leave a tiny gap between each of the strings and the 1st fret.

In my experience, (if the frets are decently level and in good shape) action at the nut can be lower than most techs will set, particularly on the treble strings... and this slight difference of only a few 1000ths of an inch, makes a world of difference in how easy a guitar is to play (particularly when barring chords near the nut, which I do a lot).

I judge the action at the nut by sound... with a capo between 2nd and 3rd frets (string is resting on the second), I pluck the string with a pick. Then, I fret the string at the first fret and pluck it again. IF THE PITCH CHANGED when I fret at the first, there is a gap, if not, the string is resting on the fret. If it buzzes, the string is VERY CLOSE. I use the pitch change (or lack thereof) and/or buzzing to decide when my action is "optimum" for me. Starting with all the strings clearing the first (that TINY gap I mentioned), I will use nut slot files to lower the treble e and b strings until they are JUST BARELY TOUCHING the first fret when capoed between 2 and 3 (no change in pitch when fretted at 1). The g string is lowered until, when fretted at 1, I hear a SLIGHT BUZZ when plucked, meaning its very close to the first fret, but not touching. The three bass strings are left with tiny gaps that I gauge by eye... with the gaps getting slightly bigger in the progression from 4th (D) to 6th (E).

Adjusting the saddle would be the third step... AFTER setting the relief and action at the nut. For you, I might first try setting the action at the 12th fret at 6/64" (E) and 4/64" (e)... and have you play. See how it feels, see how it plays. Can you fret the chords you want? does it buzz more than you like? If there isn't unacceptable buzzing, I might try dropping the action further... maybe to 5/64" on the E.

Anyway, sorry for the excessively long post... But, that is how I would approach the problem. I guess your tech/luthier will likely approach it much the same way (tho' I would bet he leaves the nut slots higher than I would). Good luck in your efforts... and enjoy making music with your Guilds!
I thoroughly enjoyed your "excessively long post" Dave. And yes, why Wil prefers .010's answers a lot of questions. Very precise answer my friend.

West
 

adorshki

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The next thing I would like to point out is that comparing saddle height between two 50 year old guitars is not a valid judge of how the guitars should be setup... even if the guitars were the same year, same model. Even, really, if they were sister guitars made in the same batch on the same day. There are probably many reasons for this, but several that come to mind are, first, the guitars were made largely by hand in the 1970s, and there would be slight variations from one to the next. For example, when attaching the necks, a very slight difference in the neck angle would affect the optimum height of the bridge and saddle. It's my understanding from LTG members that worked in the Westerly factory that Guild actually had bins of bridges and saddles with different heights, and after the neck was set, would pick the bridge that "fit" the neck angle, and then pick the appropriate saddle.
"YES." however bridge was likely to get sanded to "fine tune" the height so that the ideal 1/2" combined bridge saddle height would be attained when ideal saddle height was taken into account. with "tolerance" on specs, of course. Also, there was a period (in late '70's IIRC )when bridges and saddles were quite a bit (as bridges/saddles go) lower than the traditional 1/2" combined height. Some of 'em actually look like they've been shaved, but they're not
 

Wilmywood

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Ok! Got the '78 G37 back from the luthier. Got 99% of the string buzz out of it by dressing the upper frets. The neck still has the hump, but you can see in the pics that the hump in the frets' crowns is gone. Pre-dressing on the left, post-dressing on the right. Even have about a half turn of truss rod tension in it.
 

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Wilmywood

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One more note: after I got it back, I decided to replace the Gotoh tuners with a set of silver Grovers that had been on my '72 G37 for 50 years, that I had replaced with gold Grovers. The Gotohs were notchy and sticky. When tuning if I went a touch sharp and backed off, I'd have to pull on the string to get the tuner to spin.
Anywho, while doing that I decided to replace the strings with a new set of .012-.053 D'Addarios phosphor bronze.
That change made zero difference in that last bit of buzz. I suspect that bit is more due to my flatpick style as it is string thickness.
I'll be going back to .010-.047s next string change.
 

Wilmywood

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Ok after dealing with a slight bit of buzz (and also, contrary to my previous post NO truss rod tension, which made me nervous) I decided to look into a taller saddle. Not finding one online that I would not have to alter to fit, I decided to shim this existing saddle up a bit. After looking at various items to use, I found an old .053 wound string in my junk box and cut off a piece to use as a shim. It raised the saddle just enough and also allowed me to put about 3/8 of a turn of truss rod tension in it. I was able to sneak the saddle out and back in without removing the strings so I left the .012-.053s on it. I'll let this settle for a few days then fine tune the truss rod and go from there. The vast majority of the residual buzz is now gone.
 
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