Big Bummer! Need a Neck Reset on a New F 512!

[count savage]

I took my Tacoma-built F 512 in to Will at Spruce Tree Music in Madison, WI, to have it set up a few weeks ago. I purchased it new from Dave's Guitars in La Crosse. I'd been playing it for a year and living with some dead spots on the neck. Decided to have someone who had been selling and working on Guilds since the '70s do a pro set up. Will said the neck needs a reset and he couldn't work on it. A shocker to me. I said, well, that sounds like a hassle maybe I'll just play it as is and he said, No, you really shouldn't. Guild needs to address this. Sooooo.....I'll have to see what happens. Bought it from Dave Rogers of Dave's Guitars on an even trade for a Beatles-era Vox AC 30 I had. Dave's a huge Fender dealer (meaning he has pull with them so I'm hoping that translate to Guild), so he's going to oversee the repair or replacement. Anyway, just thought I'd report this unlucky story and wondered if this is very rare. Will said, simply, that it's not common that it happens, but from time to time guitar builders make mistakes....how long does Guild take to address something like this?

 

[6L6]

Sorry to hear about this. Good luck with the fix!

6

 

[jazzmang]

While that seems awfully short (timewise) for a guitar to need a neck reset, I think Guild will cover it, so as long as you're the original owner and it was bought new (they'll need a receipt).

I think they'd require you to send it out to Guild/FMIC Repair in Nashville, but they do wonderful work, so I wouldn't be too worried.

As far as timeframe for repair... it really depends on how busy they are. Luckily, the process is not very time consuming, but I wouldn't be surprised if they need to keep it for upwards of a month or more.

I've had 2 guitars there for over 6 months! They are getting full refinishes though, so thats what is killing the time. Hopefully something as relatively straightforward as a neck reset would be taken care of quickly.

 

[capnjuan]

... I'd been playing it for a year and living with some dead spots on the neck....

Hi Count; sorry to hear of your problem. At the risk of exposing myself as the hack that I am, what does the expression 'dead spot on the neck' mean and how is it a tell for a neck re-set? I hope Guild can take care of this for you. CJ

 

[count savage]

What I meant was that there were places on the E and B strings where the strings would not resonate when fretted, they 'dampened out' and were dead and buzzed or hardly sounded. Typically you would loosen the neck to give them more clearance but this didn't work because the neck wasn't right, so you really couldn't bring the action down or up satisfactorily to customize the action.

 

[cjd-player]

Wow, count, that really stinks for a new guitar.

I hope it all works out for you in a short time span.

 

[jazzmang]

What I meant was that there were places on the E and B strings where the strings would not resonate when fretted, they 'dampened out' and were dead and buzzed or hardly sounded. Typically you would loosen the neck to give them more clearance but this didn't work because the neck wasn't right, so you really couldn't bring the action down or up satisfactorily to customize the action.

Hmmm. Thats not a typical symptom of an insufficient neck angle. Are you sure the neck isn't warped?

 

[adorshki]

What I meant was that there were places on the E and B strings where the strings would not resonate when fretted, they 'dampened out' and were dead and buzzed or hardly sounded. Typically you would loosen the neck to give them more clearance but this didn't work because the neck wasn't right, so you really couldn't bring the action down or up satisfactorily to customize the action.

Hmmm. Thats not a typical symptom of an insufficient neck angle. Are you sure the neck isn't warped?

That's what I was thinking, but I'm no expert. Unless maybe the saddle's already so low there's not enough break angle? (Even though it's new) Gotta look at all the possibilities...

 

[capnjuan]

What I meant was that there were places on the E and B strings where the strings would not resonate when fretted, they 'dampened out' and were dead and buzzed or hardly sounded. Typically you would loosen the neck to give them more clearance but this didn't work because the neck wasn't right, so you really couldn't bring the action down or up satisfactorily to customize the action.

Thanks Count; I understand. At the risk of a veer, anytime you wanna post pics of that Vox 12er ... Good luck. CJ

 

[devellis]

That's a real bummer and kind of inexcusable for a new guitar. Surely, Guild will want to make it right.

Usually a neck that needs a reset will manifest as uncomfortable action and poor intonation because you're having to stretch the strings to get them in contact with the frets up the neck. However, on a new instrument, the neck angle could be over-set, that is to say, tipped back too far. This is sometimes done , especially on 12-strings, to give a little room for geometry changes that you can expect to happen over time. If you laid a straight edge along the frets of an over-set neck, the end would align above the edge of the bridge, somewhere along the height of the saddle. Now, this kind of neck misalignment could very well cause the type of dead spots that were described. Also, this kind of neck misalignment, unlike the other kind, would be more likely on a newer than an older guitar. Whether a neck should be over-set is controversial. I've heard luthiers disparage this practice. It's predicated on the idea that the geometry can't be built to remain stable, which doesn't seem like it should be the case. Furthermore, even builders who might endorse this practice would agree that any over-set should be very subtle and certainly not so extreme as to cause problems with fretting the strings. As we have discussed in another thread, saddle height from the factory is usually intentionally at or near the high end, with the expectation that it will be lowered to suit the buyer. A neck angle that can't accommodate that adjustment without leading to the type of problem described is a bum job, period.

As I said, I suspect (and hope) that Guild will acknowledge this issue and put it right. If the neck is finished separately from the body, a neck reset shouldn't be too big a deal, especially in the Nashville shop. If the neck and body are finished as a unit, getting the neck off neatly and getting the neck/body seam to look right will be a little bit trickier and the extra drying time for the finish touch-up will slow things down a little bit, but not much.

Getting this done, and done now, is definitely the way to go. It'll be a bummer to be without the guitar for a while but when everything is put right, it'll be a closed issue and you'll just be able to enjoy that wonderful guitar with no worries. Hope it goes quickly and smoothly.

 

[kostask]

Dead spots can also be caused by fret height differences, but I'm sure that the luthier who looked over the guitar took that into account when he looked at the neck.

I have seen fairly new guitars with under-set and over-set necks. Once in a while they do get through. My Westerly DV-6 had an under-set neck from the factory, which is why I got it at such a low price in the first place. I have seen other brands of well known and respected guitars show up with over-set necks that were just a few weeks old. Setting of necks is still done by hand, and is very dependent on who is doing the neck setting, and even the best will not get it right sometimes, although it should have been caught at final inspection/set-up.

Kostas

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

Get a second opinion.
That neck should not need a re-set for many more years.

 

[Rich]

Good luck on getting your guitar repaired by guild. My beloved D50 has been languishing in their nashville repair facility for close to 5 months now. :evil:

 

[chazmo]

I hope it's not a reset, count... My 2006 Tacoma-built F-512 has been perfect. I agree that maybe you should get a second opinion... Not that I'm invalidating your luthier's conclusion, but I agree with jazzy that this is atypical and maybe it's just a fret job that's needed.

Has the guitar changed over time, count, or was it this way from the git go? A neck reset would normally be needed for a forward-pulled neck which would make the guitar hard to play... Have you sighted down the neck and does it look straight or warped/twisted?

Just out of curiosity, which frets are causing you buzz, etc, on your E and B strings? I assume you mean the high E, right?

Also, what's the date on this F-512? Is it a single or dual-trussed version?

 

[kostask]

Count Savage:

If you want to check the neck angle for yourself, get a 24" long straightedge (a metal ruler, or one side of a framing square would do), and place it on the lengthwise on fretboard center line (between the D and G string pairs, in your case). push it forward until it either runs up against the front of the bridge (a small distance down from the top of the bridge means that you will need a neck reset soon, more than 3/33" to 1/8" means you need a neck reset now, and it would be a good idea to un-string the guitar until that is done). If the straightedge passes over the top of the bridge, or lands directly on the top of the bridge, then the neck angle is OK, no neck reset required (don't put the opposite end of the straight edge on the nut, just on the frets).

If the neck angle is OK, and you are still having dead spots on the neck, try to isolate which strings, at which fret positions are not playing properly. You can then use a small ruler or straight edge (enough to span 3-4 fret positions) at those fret positions, to see which frets are high or low. If it is the frets, the small straight edge will show the high one by being a rocking point for the ruler. If a fret is low, you will see a gap between the bottom edge of the ruler and the top of the low fret. It may be a couple of frets have to be hammered down a little bit, or if there are many frets all over the fingerboard showing problems, you may need a fret level and dress (still a lot cheaper than a reset, and expected to be the problem from your description). If indeed the problem is with the frets, you will need to have a luthier do the work; and you will need to find a new luthier, too, as the competence of a luthier who mis-diagnoses a fret problem for a neck angle problem does not instill a great deal of confidence.

Kostas

 

[count savage]

Thanks to everyone for their concern and suggestions. I am going to get a second and maybe third opinion before sending it off to the black hole of the Guild factory. (Hopefully it's not that bad, but some experiences here seem to validate that impression.)

Kostask, Will Bremer, the luthier at Spruce Tree Music, www.sprucetreemusic.com, is a long long standing Guild dealer and repairer. And Will actually got out his metal straight edge and did exactly what you're suggesting and showed me and yes, according to how you describe it, it suggested that the reset needed to be immediate because the angle isn't right and adjustments won't result in uniform string heights and consistent and reliable tuning. Still, I'm going to show it to a guitar builder I know and maybe another luthier in town. It IS an annoying thing to have to deal with on a new instrument that discounted still cost $2400 new. But that's the breaks, I guess. Fortunately I'm ecstatic about the virtually new Tacoma built D 50 I got recently from Jim Holler at Trinity Guitars. So, it hasn't diminished by enthusiasm for the Guild brand. Just love the sound of that adi spruce and rosewood, and the Guild low end! Nothing like it.

 

[kostask]

Count Savage:

If the neck angle is indeed wrong, Fender/Guild should be replacing the guitar, not repairing it. Ask if you can have a replacement, as it is an almost brand new guitar under warranty. There may be something that one of the two dealers (the original one, and the one you are working with now) can do to help pursuade Fender/Guild. If you do get it replaced, you won't have to wait for the repairs to be completed so that you can play the guitar again.

It seems pretty obvious that the guitar was build wrong from day one. There is no way that a Guild 12 string should need a neck reset in just over a year (not unless you strung it up with heavy strings (you didn't, did you?)).

Kostas

 

[count savage]

No, actually I had medium lights and immediately tuned the guitar down to D. I only play 12-strings down a step. So, the tension shouldn't have been an issue. Kostask, I'm going to advocate with Dave's Guitars to do as you suggested -- replace the guitar because it wasn't built right. Thanks for your input. It's been very helpful. CS

 

[chazmo]

count, is this one of the new necks with a single truss rod (flanked by fixed carbon rods), or is this one of the traditional-style duals... just curious. I agree with the conclusion.

 

[count savage]

It's the single truss rod, Chazmo. Don't know if that had any impact on this or not. But it was built after they abandoned the dual truss rod concept, though I see there are places on the Guild website where they're still claiming dual truss rods.