Disappointed in sound as a direct result of not being able to test an instrument prior to purchase

[doctor underhill]

first a little background- i'll turn 70 in a little over a week and have been playing guitar since 1963. in that time- some of it while working in musical equipment stores- i have had more guitars than i can honestly remember. over the years i have developed a particular love of the sonic characteristics of P90 equipped guitars and tube amps. i can think of at least 10 P90 equipped guitars i have owned/played in the last decade. fast forward to today. when i first saw press releases covering the Starfire I Jet 90 i knew i had to purchase one as they encompassed virtually all the designs i love best- thinline archtop, semi-hollow with a center block capable of anchoring a stud mounted bridge (i had an ES-135 reissue Gibson back in 1996 that, while having a center block the material used was "chromyte" i.e. balsa wood which due to poor density could not adequately tame unwanted resonance and would NOT allow for a stud mount bridge- a most disappointing guitar), single cutaway and not just 2 large bobbin single coils but 3. i thought ALL RIGHT! here's a very reasonably priced guitar that check all my boxes and was from a trusted maker- i have owned 3 Starfire IV's going back to 1970, plus a Starfire III. now comes the sad part of this story. i live in an area where the closest stocking dealer was over 200 miles away and so i found myself in the position of taking a chance in purchasing without actually playing one of these guitars. i knew the P90s were Franz, but all the other Guilds i owned had humbuckers so i knew/anticipated little in how these pickups perform VS the standard P90s i have owned in the past. subsequently i have learned that (a) the Franz design pickups do Not sound similar to most standard P90s, and (b) Most Importantly there are significant dimensional differences between the Franz and standard P90s. so what i have is a brand new guitar that does Not produce the sound i was looking for (and that i have achieved with other P90 equipped guitars), and because of the size differences makes retro fitting alternative pickups a serious consideration because of the body design.
i know that several posts have raised the possibility of having Franz pickup rewound to change the overall sound but considering that this is a guitar that was purchased for less than $500 i fear the costs associated with having the 3 pickups rewound may not be justifiable in my case.
in hindsight i should have just knuckled down and made determination to make the trek to a dealer where i could have determined if the existing electronics would have yielded the sound i was after. but, alas i didn't.
sorry for the long post/rant but if my experience keeps someone else from finding themselves in the same situation it was worth it.
have a great weekend.

 

[Wilmywood]

I didn't think Franz's and P90s were all that similar other than visually. I have an X-375 with Franz's and a Casino with P90's and they are not at all similar in sound to my ear

 

[krysh]

If you dont like it, just send it back…
And paragraphs make reading more easy…

 

[GAD]

If you dont like it, just send it back…
And paragraphs make reading more easy…

He used paragraphs. That first one is a doozy, though (but we all pound out a frustration paragraph from time to time). Maybe just not familiar with forums?

With forums, hitting enter twice after each paragraph separates them the way you might expect a single <enter> does if you're used to using a word processor. I've helped a number of people over the years with similar habits.

 

[Mapleman54]

I read with interest the good Doctor’s account of acquiring a new Guild in a Guild-deprived area - I too have had to take a punt now and then and trust mostly to instinct in guitar purchase, particularly as I am interested mostly in old guitars.
In the face of the wonderful technical and experiential knowledge base on this forum, I shiver at the prospects of expressing an opinion on pickups - I will assuredly get something wrong!
However, I have a thought I feel may be relevant. Based on ownership of old Franz pickups (and even a couple of P90’s) I would say that the way they work on a particular guitar is sometimes only revealed in ensemble performance. What has sounded to me a twangy, superficial, and unmusical sound at home has been transformed into a vibrant, strong, drummer-dominating sound in performances or rehearsal. My Franz-equipped 1960 T100D is a classic case in point being an unforgiving snarly beast at home, and a shining, mellifluous star on even a small stage!
I wonder if your new Starfire might show a different nature as you use it more and in diverse circumstances? It would be interesting to hear how you get on with it over time! Don’t give up on it would be my thought! (The band pic, with the great Jack Monck on bass, shows a transformational place for my other T100, which was bought un-auditioned!)

 

[Harp Tail]

Your sunburst T-100D is a thing of beauty.

 

[Mapleman54]

Your sunburst T-100D is a thing of beauty.

Thanks Harp Tail, I agree! It too was bought unauditioned, but I trusted the chap in Canada completely, and I’d already bought the blonde one so had a pretty shrewd idea what it would sound like! It exceeded expectations but still I only use it in a small band context due to the growly Franz sound on its own...I could tame that with flatwounds but I’ve come to value the edgy-ness of the Franz pickups. No wonder Blues guys like them!

 

[GGJaguar]

I don't think I've ever seen a vintage brown Guild case that clean!

 

[mavuser]

@doctor underhill drive the 200 miles to a bona fide dealer that does a lot of business, and trade up the SF1J90+ cash for something else. definitely not worth rewinding those pickups (I actually found they sounded pretty good on the first original run of Newark Street Aristocrat).

You could try to trade it for an epiphone with P-90s. and then any P-90 replacement pickup would fit in the epiphone, if you deemed an upgrade necessary.

 

[Harp Tail]

Thanks Harp Tail, I agree! It too was bought unauditioned, but I trusted the chap in Canada completely, and I’d already bought the blonde one so had a pretty shrewd idea what it would sound like! It exceeded expectations but still I only use it in a small band context due to the growly Franz sound on its own...I could tame that with flatwounds but I’ve come to value the edgy-ness of the Franz pickups. No wonder Blues guys like them!

My Starfire was actually bought sight unseen. But I got a good impression of the store associate I was on the phone with and it turned out to be a sweet deal.

 

[swiveltung]

first a little background- i'll turn 70 in a little over a week and have been playing guitar since 1963. in that time- some of it while working in musical equipment stores- i have had more guitars than i can honestly remember. over the years i have developed a particular love of the sonic characteristics of P90 equipped guitars and tube amps. i can think of at least 10 P90 equipped guitars i have owned/played in the last decade. fast forward to today. when i first saw press releases covering the Starfire I Jet 90 i knew i had to purchase one as they encompassed virtually all the designs i love best- thinline archtop, semi-hollow with a center block capable of anchoring a stud mounted bridge (i had an ES-135 reissue Gibson back in 1996 that, while having a center block the material used was "chromyte" i.e. balsa wood which due to poor density could not adequately tame unwanted resonance and would NOT allow for a stud mount bridge- a most disappointing guitar), single cutaway and not just 2 large bobbin single coils but 3. i thought ALL RIGHT! here's a very reasonably priced guitar that check all my boxes and was from a trusted maker- i have owned 3 Starfire IV's going back to 1970, plus a Starfire III. now comes the sad part of this story. i live in an area where the closest stocking dealer was over 200 miles away and so i found myself in the position of taking a chance in purchasing without actually playing one of these guitars. i knew the P90s were Franz, but all the other Guilds i owned had humbuckers so i knew/anticipated little in how these pickups perform VS the standard P90s i have owned in the past. subsequently i have learned that (a) the Franz design pickups do Not sound similar to most standard P90s, and (b) Most Importantly there are significant dimensional differences between the Franz and standard P90s. so what i have is a brand new guitar that does Not produce the sound i was looking for (and that i have achieved with other P90 equipped guitars), and because of the size differences makes retro fitting alternative pickups a serious consideration because of the body design.
i know that several posts have raised the possibility of having Franz pickup rewound to change the overall sound but considering that this is a guitar that was purchased for less than $500 i fear the costs associated with having the 3 pickups rewound may not be justifiable in my case.
in hindsight i should have just knuckled down and made determination to make the trek to a dealer where i could have determined if the existing electronics would have yielded the sound i was after. but, alas i didn't.
sorry for the long post/rant but if my experience keeps someone else from finding themselves in the same situation it was worth it.
have a great weekend.

I dont know what the Franz dimensions are, but I have retro fitted many Gibson P90's into everything from Strats to flat tops. Where there's a will there's usually a way. Is it possible a Gibson soapbar will fit in those Franz covers? Give me the pole spacing and overall size and I can compare with the Gibson covers I have here.
I've even put soapbars in adapted covers on a Gretsch (not that it was very eloquently done):



Another thing I have discovered: the "Roswell" P90 that comes in some import guitars like Harely Benton, is very close to sounding like a Gibson P90 and far better than the Epi P90's or the Seymour Duncan's for that matter. I discovered this because I bought a used set of Gibson P90's (my go-to) for a guitar with Roswell's, installed them and frankly couldn't hear a difference! They come up on Ebay and go cheap.