Finish Checking

[Brad Little]

I'm curious about finish checking. I've never had it happen as I've always been careful about temperature differences and my guitars. However, I'm curious how much of a temp difference is a problem. If I left a guitar (in a case) in a car at about 35-40 degrees F, then brought it inside and opened it in 70 degrees, would that likely cause a problem? Also, do satin finish guitars have a problem with finish checking?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Brad

 

[killdeer43]

Brad,

I could offer my D50 as a classic example of finish checking. I could also offer a testimonial about not leaving your guitar in the trunk of the car, no matter how much care you took to wrap in swaddling blankets, etc.

I thought I had taken all the necessary precautions on a mid-winter jaunt between Williams, AZ and Weed, CA, a few years ago. But when I opened the case in the motel room, I was destroyed by what I saw. Some say that I opened the case too soon. Who knows. You can't really see it from straight on and it's hardly noticeable, but with certain lighting, etc., it screams at me!

I think it's more of a problem with the nitro tops than with the satin finsh, IMHO.

Excuse me, I have to sit down with my D50 for a bit....lots of making up to do! :wink:

Joe

 

[southernGuild]

:lol: "Enquiring minds want to know" Havent heard that in about 30 years!! :lol: .....but YES, a good question.........and SCAREY! :roll:
Joe, I can FEEL your pain...........If my Dv52 suffered such.....I would be truely saddened, and self loathing! ( she is STILL mint...from 1993) .....I too would like to KNOW what to do...and NOT do....in more specific terms......I always try to be extra cautious, but sometimes....you never know! that crazing look does not appeal to me, but if I had to live with it I could.....but would rather a few dings and dents.

 

[bluesypicky]

Actually, I find the crazing on my 67 LG-01 pretty appealing.... 8)

 

[West R Lee]

I think the main thing to remember is to not expose your guitar to abrupt temperature changes. I don't think a little cool weather would hurt it, I just wouldn't take it into a cold environment, then take it in and open the case. Anytime I've bought a guitar from up north in winter, and there have been a few, I always let the box sit at room temperature for hours before I'll open it. Same with playing outside and coming back in.

I have also been told that there are things that were done, or not done in the finishing process that will make a guitar more likely to develope lacquer checks.

West

 

[Tony Burns]

Finish checking also comes with age -like fine wine i like it on my vintage instruments ! My 71' D-55 has a bit but very fine -probably from all those long walks in the cold when i was a Youngster !

 

[GardMan]

Not an expert, by any means... but I do think that checking can also occur from prolonged exposure to extreme low temps, even if the changes are gradual. My D-55 shipped in the dead of winter, thru a NY/NJ blizzard with temps far below freezing (maybe <0F, I can't remember). Knowing this... I gave it a full 8-10 hrs to warm up. About 6 hrs in the box, then pulled the case out of the box and gave it 3-4 more hours. The case was room temp to the touch when I opened it (as was the guitar)... and my heart sank when I saw all the checking. The only thing I can figure is either (1) it was already there, and not disclosed by the seller, or (2) it happened from the extreme temp, rather than a sudden change. I won't ship (or have shipped) a guitar in winter again!
Dave

 

[Gruhn Loon]

Is there any way to correct limited finish checking? As a non-technical type I would naively think focused heat might work (think lasers, computers, and lab coats). What has been tried by the professionals who deal with guitar repair and/or restoration?

 

[kostask]

If the checking is on the surface, it may be possible to use something like Quali-Renew to reamalgamate the nitrocellulose lacquer (basically melt it, and allow it to reflow so that the cracks disappear), but this is not always successful. Most checking is not on the surface, though, so to get rid of it, you need to refinish the guitar; in some cases, just sanding down to the lower layers of the nitro, and respray, in most cases, down to bare wood and a full refinish. The costs are considerable, and most people just live with it.

Kostas

 

[pickoid]

Here's a webpage that shows Frank Ford repairing a single lacquer check. Very interesting, but not practical if there are a lot of finish checks. My JF55 has a few minor finish checks that look pretty much identical to the one he is working on here. It seems rather rare to find a vintage Guild that doesn't have at least minor finish checking, no? The nature of the beast, I guess.

I have a friend who has a Gallagher guitar, and he took it to an outdoor fall bluegrass festival where the nighttime temperature dropped down close to freezing, and his guitar ended up looking like a roadmap of New Jersey all over. It happens.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... kfill.html

 

[killdeer43]

It seems rather rare to find a vintage Guild that doesn't have at least minor finish checking, no? The nature of the beast, I guess.

I have a friend who has a Gallagher guitar, and he took it to an outdoor fall bluegrass festival where the nighttime temperature dropped down close to freezing, and his guitar ended up looking like a roadmap of New Jersey all over. It happens.

I've heard that the Guild nitro finishes are very susceptible to crazing/checking. I might add to my D50 story/tragedy and say that the temperature dipped down to 10 degrees on a couple of nights in northern Arizona, so you could say that it was COLD, as opposed to cool.

*I would think that with a Gallagher/bluegrass connection, the roadmap would look more like, say, North Carolina maybe? :wink:

Joe

 

[dreadnut]

Living in Michigan, finish checking is almost a given :roll:

 

[pickoid]

*I would think that with a Gallagher/bluegrass connection, the roadmap would look more like, say, North Carolina maybe? :wink:

Joe

No, these were not aesthetically pleasing checks... :lol:

 

[chazmo]

My luthier built a magnificent small-bodied, fingerstyle guitar a few years ago and after leaving it in his car in the cold weather he brought it inside to show someone. He said he could actually hear the cracking when he popped the case lid.

Sure, rapid changes (like opening a cold case in a warm room) are the most spectacular causes of checking, but it's probably also true that long term changes in temperature and humidity will also result in checking. As I understand it, nitrocellulose lacquer hardens as it dries and essentially becomes tough but brittle. Anything that can affect the shape of the guitar (e.g., drying out or simply shrinking in the cold) will put stress on the finish and do that.

I've been told that modern poly finishes are much more pliable and never really get brittle like nitro. That's why checking isn't as much of a concern (if at all) with guitars finished this way.

Final note, the USA Guild acoustics are still (and as far as I know always have been) nitro finishes and thus are all subject to checking. I got confirmation of that from Tacoma folks, but I'm not sure about Corona.

 

[adorshki]

.....I too would like to KNOW what to do...and NOT do....in more specific terms......I always try to be extra cautious, but sometimes....you never know!

HI Southern: Universal concensus is do not subject it to sudden temperature changes! especially on the equivalent of taking it from outside cold to inside WARM . 40 fahrenheit to to 70 fahrenheit would probably be enough. 50 to 70 might get by. I keep mine in cases in a closet to keep storage temp as stable as possible, (also make sure this closet isn't next to your water heater or outside wall for example). They'll never get more than a 5 deg change when opening case now. Best insurance for your '52: don't take it outside. If you must take it outside don't leave it in your car, and if you must travel with it keep it in the passenger compartment so it's at least as comfortable as you are.( :lol: ).
I must admit I love playing outdoors and my '25 has probably 1000 outdoor hours on it but it's got some slight finish cracks in the grain, probably due to the times I tried to play her in 50 degree temps. But it was never in the car without me.

 

[Paddlefoot]

I haven't looked into it in quite some time but the classical players used to get an insulated case cover to zip over the outside of the hardshell case. These usually had a sort of silver "spaceblanket" look on the outside and had thinsulate or light thermal insulation. Southern Calif., mostly indoor player here, so I don't have much of a checking problem. I guess you will hear the howl when I get a check though

 

[bluesypicky]

Checking anyone?

 

[killdeer43]

OK, here we go with my D50, a couple of quick shots....even though they don't show up at various angles, I know they're there and I know why. Doh!

Joe

 

[Dr. Spivey]

Here are some photos of a Martin D35 that belonged to a member at AGF: http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/ww247/BaylinerCapri/ Enlarge the last 4 photos for a clear view of the whole ugly mess. This was a new or nearly new guitar that was shipped in cold weather. He waited only 4 hours to open it up.

When I bought my D17 from Fungus, in mid December last year we waited to ship it until after Christmas to avoid the risk of damage in the holiday shipping chaos. We lucked out with the weather, as when it shipped temperatures between here and PA were barely freezing. I still waited 36 hours to unpack the guitar, 12 hrs. in the package, the duration in the unopened case. Better safe than sorry.

The temperature in the cargo hold of an airplane can easily plummet below zero any time of year. This was told to me by my brother in law, ex-USAF, and 30 years with an airline.

We take our guitars out in sub zero weather up here. The drill goes like this: Warm the car up. Warm it up good, as in drive it around for 10-15 min., or whatever it takes. With the car idling go in and get your axe, in its case, wrapped in an old blanket or something. Step briskly to your vehicle and put guitar inside. Put guitar on the seat, not on the cold floor. Drive directly to your destination. Upon arrival, take guitar indoors at once. Don't park half a mile away and walk, risk a parking ticket for a few moments if need be. Don't screw around, don't b.s. yourself, and all will be well. Some folks like to wait 15 min., crack the case open a quarter inch and wait another 15. I know people who have guitars 50 or more years old and only have minor finish checks, if any. Professionals who gig a lot usually can't or don't do these things and have cracks in their finish.

The bottom line is: WINTER SUCKS! :roll:

 

[Brad Little]

This was a new or nearly new guitar that was shipped in cold weather. He waited only 4 hours to open it up....The temperature in the cargo hold of an airplane can easily plummet below zero any time of year. This was told to me by my brother in law, ex-USAF, and 30 years with an airline.

One online guitar I bought came with instructions on opening it. Might have been from Archtop.com or Elderly. I forget exactly what they were, but I waited a long time.
If I'm buying online, unless it's a deal I can't pass up, I prefer mild weather and ground shipping.
Brad