GAD-25 and warping, buzzing? Insight requested!

[Pausanius]

Hello All!

Forgive my newness (to this forum and overall guitar playing); but I came across this forum and thought you may be able to offer some insight.

While I've always been more of a piano guy, I bought a new Guild GAD-25 (paid ~$400) as a learning guitar for my first 'Father's Day' present back in July 2009.

I enjoyed the guitar for the first several months and consistently kept in its tweed hardshell case, certainly away from windows and temperature in our house usually stays between 68-72.

The first year, as soon as winter months hit (this is GA, thus winter is used loosely), the guitar seemingly overnight started buzzing out on a few frets. The next day, the minor buzzing became quite major as the top GBE strings were virtually unplayable between 3rd and 15th frets.

I brought the guitar into a local music chain and their only recommendation was to put a splint under the bridge, which they did... however the marvelously low action of the guitar beforehand became pretty much unusable, at least to a novice like myself.

In Spring last year, I brought the guitar into a Guild-certified shop and paid about $100 to have them professionally set the guitar up. Upon getting it back, it sounded fantastic -- perhaps better than when I first got it.

It was a joy to play it this past Spring and Summer again; however, in December we got a nice cold front and again, the guitar has gone to unplayable overnight as the same three strings can't be played with buzzing on the bottom 3 strings as well.


After the first time around, I did go out and purchase the "in-case humidifier" (aka sponge holder) for the cold, dry months as their recommendation. I had read online that Mahogany woods tend to be more sensitive, but is this a common occurrence that I should only be able to play this two and a half seasons a year?

Is it possible this could be an issue more of a defect? Or do you have any other possible recommendations for me on how to resolve this?

I was pretty well settled to have the guitar setup once a year (if necessary), but the return on that was hopefully 12 months of playable time as opposed to 7-9.



Any insight is vastly appreciated!

 

[chazmo]

Welcome to LTG, Pausanius.

Unfortunately, I don't have any specific insight to offer you on your GAD-25. What you described after your first year sounds exactly like typical humidity trouble, though. Temperature control is actually *less* of a factor (*huge* temperature swings should be avoided) with solid wood guitars than humidity control. I split (badly) two mahogany guitars before I learned that lesson. It sounds like you've educated yourself since then, but I always recommend a trip to Taylorguitars.com to watch Bob Taylor's videos on the subject. He has tried to be an evangelist on the subject, and the advent of web videos (and Taylor's outstanding web site) is a great resource.

I'm not sure if humidity is your problem, given that you're using case humidifiers. But I have to say that there should be no reason at all why you can't play your guitar year-round. Some guitars will definitely be more sensitive to humidity than others, but you should be able to accommodate their needs. I recommend a room humidifier if your problem is dryness. You can pick up a hygrometer for your storage room to check. Best to keep your guitar around 50%RH.

 

[Ridgemont]

That must be some crazy Georgia weather. :? I do not know other peoples experiences, but I do not think you should need a setup yearly. Yes the guitar will need a few tweaks here and there, but nothing that should make it unplayable. A guitar, sorry, I mean a well made guitar should not move/shift as dramatically as you are describing. Now that it is unplayable, go back to the certified Guild shop and explain your situation to the guitar tech who saw your guitar. Take your receipts for both the setup and the original purchase. Was the guitar bought new? If yes then there is a lifetime warrantee and work should be covered. If not purchased new, well, still talk to the tech to see what they suggest.

Fluctuations in temperature and humidity can play tricks on you and expose underlying issues. For example, I had a GAD30 with a loose brace. I could only hear it in the afternoon when the house was warmer. I believe that the warmer/more humid afternoon allowed the wood to expand and upon vibration, the loose brace would rattle. During the cool hours of the morning, the wood may have been tighter, and no brace vibration was evident. It took me a few weeks to figure this out and finally was able to show the Guild dealer the issue. That loose brace turned into a new guitar send by Guild since they do not pay for fixing GADs.

Hope this helps

 

[poser]

First of all, welcome to the forum. No need to apologize for newness or playing ability. None of us had to audition to join. :wink: (I call myself poser because, well, I just don't play that well ...)

I agree with Ridgemont. Changes in the weather shouldn't cause such drastic changes in the playability of your guitar. I have some good and some, let's call them - modest guitars here in Ohio. We have some pretty drastic changes in temperature and humidity and none of my guitars has had that great a response to seasonal changes.

Here's a good site which has lots of great guitar information. You may not be able to diagnose the problem but it may give you a lot of useful background about guitars:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/OwnerManual/manssguitar.html

Keep us posted on what you find out.

 

[Ridgemont]

I think it can be said that it is something wrong with the neck, or the top. Check to see whether there is bellying in the top, meaning a bulging in the mahogany top near the bridge. Check to see whether the neck is strait. To do this, using the low e string, put your finger on the first fret and then with the other hand put your finger on the 14th fret. See whether there is space between the low e string and the frets from the 5th to the 9th fret. if there is space, then it is possible there is something wrong with the neck. The neck could also be pulling away from the body, by the dovetail joint. if so you should see discoloration in the finish where the neck meets the body.

Check these things and let us know what you find.

 

[jgwoods]

I vote for a dryness problem. It has happened as a seasonal event and Winter is when the humidity drops- even in Georgia.
From my own experience one humidifier in a case will not help your guitar recover, it might take 3. One will hold moisture enough to slow down, or eliminate, loss of moisture, but it takes more than one to get it back into the guitar once it has dried out.

I would take 2 sandwich baggies with holes punched in them, add 2 chunks of wetted and wrung out sponge to the bags, tie a string around one and put it in the sound hole, another under the neck, and then use the humidifier you already have to make 3. put the guitar in the case with the 3 for 3 days and check it out. It should be improved. If not it was a cheap way to figure that out and you can look for additional problems.

My 1917 Gibson A4 mandolin has this problem every now and then and using 3 "humidifiers" in the case for 3 days has fixed it every time.

 

[Pausanius]

Chazmo, Ridgemont, Poser and jgwoods -- thank you all for your quick responses!


Ridgemont, I tested out your string scenario and I'd say the gap between the low e string at 5th to the 9th fret is very minor at best. I compared it to a 'working' acoustic earlier today and it actually seemed a little lower (although not touching) than one that was playing properly.

Poswer, that website is phenomenal, at least to the beginner I am -- I wish knew about this two years ago. Humidity/moisture issues aside, I hadn't really looked into a fraction of the stuff on here before, yet I had considered myself mildly-informed.

Chazmo, I did review the Taylorguitars' video -- this dawned on me that I do actually have a hygrometer although need to find batteries. I'll give it a shot to see what the room is at where I normally store my instruments. I suppose a room humidifer may be necessary, bringing me to my next step:

jgwoods, I appreciate the recommendation and am going to give this a shot starting tomorrow (as I need to go buy some fresh sponges). At this point, the guitar certainly can't sound any worse and I'm ready to give most anything a shot.


I haven't had a chance to take the guitar back up to the repair shop, but if it has been unusually cold and dry lately... hopefully this will be the remedy. I'll certainly post an update this weekend with any changes. Thank you all for your time!

 

[Ridgemont]

Chazmo, Ridgemont, Poser and jgwoods -- thank you all for your quick responses!


Ridgemont, I tested out your string scenario and I'd say the gap between the low e string at 5th to the 9th fret is very minor at best. I compared it to a 'working' acoustic earlier today and it actually seemed a little lower (although not touching) than one that was playing properly.

Poswer, that website is phenomenal, at least to the beginner I am -- I wish knew about this two years ago. Humidity/moisture issues aside, I hadn't really looked into a fraction of the stuff on here before, yet I had considered myself mildly-informed.

Chazmo, I did review the Taylorguitars' video -- this dawned on me that I do actually have a hygrometer although need to find batteries. I'll give it a shot to see what the room is at where I normally store my instruments. I suppose a room humidifer may be necessary, bringing me to my next step:

jgwoods, I appreciate the recommendation and am going to give this a shot starting tomorrow (as I need to go buy some fresh sponges). At this point, the guitar certainly can't sound any worse and I'm ready to give most anything a shot.


I haven't had a chance to take the guitar back up to the repair shop, but if it has been unusually cold and dry lately... hopefully this will be the remedy. I'll certainly post an update this weekend with any changes. Thank you all for your time!

Well your neck is straight meaning the guitar could be pulling from the neck joint or from the bridge.

 

[12stringer]

Just my 2 cents but since you are checking neck relief (by fretting at 1st and 12th fret and checking gap at 5th fret)...I would check the High E string as well and see if the gap matches the low E strings gap...if it is the same that rules out warping of the neck....if there is almost no gap at all you could try backing off the truss rod an 8th to a quarter of a turn and see if this gets rid of the buzz without raising the action too much....sometiimes that's all it takes....of course I would check out the humidifying solutions as well.
Best of luck. :wink:
Randy

 

[chazmo]

Stabilizing the humidity is really just the first step in the process. Once you know you've got that squared away, you can proceed with adjustments. Of course, it doesn't hurt to play around with things any time, but the adjustments won't necessarily "stick".

It's all good.

 

[Don]

If you're concerned about putting wet baggies in your sound hole Planet Waves offers a "System" that places two sealed hydration bags in nylon pouches that you can suspend on your strings. It also has a single pouch you place under the headstock in your case. Guitar Center usually has them in stock. It's about $35 to get started and then you can order the refills over the Internet. I have a JF30-12 that came to me bone dry and I went through a fair number of packets getting it stabilized. The nice thing about the system is when a packet is used up it gets hard. I have the pouches in all of my guitar cases now and was amazed at how some of my instruments soaked up the moisture even though showing no evidence of dryness. Best of luck!

Cheers!

Don

 

[Pausanius]

Just my 2 cents but since you are checking neck relief (by fretting at 1st and 12th fret and checking gap at 5th fret)...I would check the High E string as well and see if the gap matches the low E strings gap...if it is the same that rules out warping of the neck....if there is almost no gap at all you could try backing off the truss rod an 8th to a quarter of a turn and see if this gets rid of the buzz without raising the action too much....sometiimes that's all it takes....of course I would check out the humidifying solutions as well.
Best of luck. :wink:
Randy

Hi 12stringer,

Thanks for the input! I checked out the high E string and it *is* flat against the frets when performing the same test. Even without pressing any frets, it does seem awfully low compared to the other strings. I tested a small adjustment to the truss rod and I'd venture to say that it maybe add another fret of playability on the high E string, but still leaves it unplayable.

I don't see any visible warping, although I'm not entirely certain how to tell. Is warping more permanent though? Or can it warp and unwarp as temperature/humidity change? I ask the latter as this is the second seasonal occurrence.



Thanks,

Tim

 

[valleyguy]

The year after I bought my new GAD30 I had to tweak the neck relief with the enclosed wrench. One more tweak a year later and it's now go to go.

 

[12stringer]

Hi Tim
You could try swapping out your Hi E and B strings for a heavier guage. The heavier guage strings may pull the treble side of the neck forward enough to cause the Hi E string to clear the fretboard.
Really though, I would take it to a luthier, but this is a fairly harmless short term solution.

 

[GardMan]

First, another welcome!

A lot of good suggestions. I would add that many folks DO adjust the setup on their guitars with the changing of the seasons. Some folks have different saddles that they swap in/out as the seasons change. Once you have the saddles made, it is pretty easy to swap them in/out...

In my case, I tend to live "on the edge" with neck relief and nut height... so it isn't uncommon for me to tweak the truss rod a bit as my guitar room cools down in late fall, and then tweak it back as it re-warms in the spring. I honestly can't remember which way I go each season... For the record, I don't proclaim to know whether it is humidity or temp... I try hard to keep RH ~45% year round, but the temps in my basement "cave" range from 58F (night) to 63F (day) in the dead of winter (yes, that's pretty cool for playing... A sweatshirts definitley req'd), while temps range from 73F (night) to 78F (day) during the heat of summer (daily variation never exceeds ~5F).
Dave

Added: Here's more than you want to know about truss rods and neck "relief:" http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/TrussRods/TrussRodAdj/tradj.html

I think Guild recommended less relief than Ford... 0.004-0.008 between string and the 5th fret, when fretted or capoed at the 1st and 14th frets is what I have in my notes (used to be a guide to setting up your guitar on Guild's website, but I couldn't find it since the revision). That's ~1/2 the diameter of the high E string...

 

[adorshki]

(used to be a guide to setting up your guitar on Guild's website, but I couldn't find it since the revision). That's ~1/2 the diameter of the high E string...[/color]

By Golly I believe you're right, I couldn't find it either. I don't remember a spec for relief but I've got action height pretty well memorized, 'cause that's where I like mine: 5-6/64ths on low E and 4.5-5/64ths on high E.
From everything I've read it is sounding like a temp/humidity variation. I was wondering if the saddle itself may be a bit low on the treble side, and only becomes a problem in the winter?