Guild D60 (Walker) - what kind of Spruce top?

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
Hi.

What kind of Spruce was used for the top on the D60?

I let my Vietnamese luthier use Hans' book, and I haven't seen it since.
I should have made it more clear that it was a loan - not a gift.
 

GardMan

Enlightened Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
5,368
Reaction score
975
Location
Utah
Guild Total
5
Marcellis,
I don't thnk either of the references (Hans or Beasely) mention the spruce by species. However, I don't think Guild used Red/Adi spruce for tops untl the move to Tacoma, but I might be wrong. The tops of all my natural Guild dreads appear to be Sitka, based on the grain characteristics... don't know about the D-25M. Perhaps Hans will chime in with more definitive info.
Dave
 

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
Thanks.

I'm wondering if this isn't Englemann.

BTW, that is a really nice stable of Guilds you have.
I especially like the back on that D46.
 

devellis

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Many would contend that it's impossible to differentiate species of spruce with anything short of lab tests. Engelmann is typically creamy white and quick to respond. Red (Adirondack) spruce typically has darker grain streaks and higher headroom. Sitka typically is somewhere in between these. But specific examples of any of these can have the characteristics of the others. What the builder does with the wood is also a huge factor and is almost always more important than the species. Marketers have created a mystique around certain woods and have up-charges for those choices. But most builders will admit in private (and many, like Rick Turner, in public) that the notion of hallmark characteristics for different species of spruce is exaggerated at least and probably of no real significance. The properties of an individual piece of wood (e.g., weight, stiffness) are important but the various species overlap considerably.

I don't mean this as a dig at anybody and I don't have sufficient first-hand knowledge to assert this as fact. It's just what I've heard repeatedly from luthiers and wood dealers who don't have a financial stake in claiming the superiority of some specific species.

I have had instruments topped with Adirondack, Sitka, Engelmann, and European spruces, as well as cedar, mahogany, and wormy chestnut. They all did their job.
 

Frosty

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
1,459
Reaction score
21
Location
New England, USA
devellis said:
Many would contend that it's impossible to differentiate species of spruce with anything short of lab tests.

It's certainly subjective, but I can not accept the assertion that it is impossible to differentiate the between the species. My eyes and ears tell me otherwise.
 

killdeer43

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
21,848
Reaction score
113
Location
Northwest Washington on the Salish Sea
Frosty said:
It's certainly subjective, but I can not accept the assertion that it is impossible to differentiate the between the species. My eyes and ears tell me otherwise.
Subjectivity is the key here.

Under one of my hats I work with a variety of woods on a regular basis, and I can usually see the differences between species.
When it comes to wood used on guitars, my eyes could do the trick but these ears have seen better days.

Although, I doubt they were ever that finely-tuned. :wink:

Cheers,
Joe
 

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
Frosty said:
My Walker D-60 is a 'burst, so I can't tell by looking.

I'm wondering if this isn't Englemann.

My ears tell me that Englemann is a fair guess.

What kind of strings you put on your D60 Frosty?

As far as the top wood goes...I don't know. I can't find any reference.
 

devellis

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Just so folks don't think this is just my personal opinion:

From Frank Ford:

Various species of spruce have been used for steel string guitar tops over the years, and each have their devotees. I'm not going to get into speculating about predicting the sound of individual species, partly because of the extreme difficulty in making a positive identification.

“Time for an anecdote:

“I attended the A.S.I.A. Symposium in 1995 and saw a number of vendors selling guitar tops in the exhibition hall. At dinner that evening I sat at a large table with Tom Humphrey, the well known classical guitar builder. Tom was talking to one of the spruce suppliers and describing how he had selected the Adirondack spruce (also known as red spruce) tops he'd bought earlier.

“I asked the vendor about his spruce, "Do you know why it's called 'red' and how can you distinguish it from other spruce." He told me," I really don't know. I can't tell it apart from other species. I just have to take the word of the man who brings me the logs. He says it's red spruce."

“Certainly there are general characteristics of color and grain that help in identifying species, but these characteristics overlap to such an extent that I really wonder if it's possible to make a positive identification of all samples.”


From Rick Turner as quoted by Matt Mustapick:

"Once again, don't ascribe particular qualities only to certain wood species. As Al has noted, there is tremendous overlap from one species of spruce to another in terms of the measureable qualities...stiffness along or across the grain, density, damping characteristics, etc. Yes, the average for one type may be a bit this way or that way from the others, and hence we wind up with all this Adirondack vs. Sitka vs. Englemann, etc. debate, but it's about each individual piece of wood. But all this happens with side and back wood, too. I've seen a lot of pretty spongy Indian rosewood...stuff that had higher damping that a lot of mahogany or maple, yet it was "rosewood"...ooooooh!

Non-luthiers (and more than a few luthiers...) want definitive definitions for these various woods; they want to buy into a belief system that is rigidly compartmentalized with regard to names and wood species.

Sorry...it's all very fuzzy borders with lots of overlap. The rest is marketing..."


I don't have enough personal experience with woods to know the real answer here. But Frank Ford, Rick Turner, and Matt Mustapick strike me as fairly well-informed sources.
 

guildzilla

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
1
Location
Worthington, Ohio
Marc bought his D-60 from me.

In the earliest promo material I have for the Gruhn/Walker guitars (from 1985 when the forerunner of the D-60 model was called a D-66), the specs indicate Sitka Spruce.

In the later promo material for the D-60, including the piece Marc posted in this thread, the type of spruce used is not specified for any of the Guild acoustics featured. But I think it would have represented a significant shift from what Guild customarily used in that era for anything but Sitka to be used on his guitar.

I went back and looked at my pix of Marc's guitar. I see the same color and silky cross grain features that I normally associate with a first-quality Guild Sitka top.

I agree with all said above relative to never being certain. That said, if it could be proved, I'd give odds and bet that it's Sitka.
 

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
I still haven't settled on strings for the D60 GZ.

I haven't warmed to this guitar yet.
My F65ce blows it away in both tone and action.
But I like the D60 better than the D40 I used to have.

The odd thing, the D60 sounds fantastic on fingerstyle Bossa Nova.
I don't think Gruhn & Walker designed the D60 to play Bossa Nova.
But it sounds better than any steel-stringed guitar I've ever played Bossa Nova on.

Strange.

But I've got it back in beautiful shape. It's my bedside guitar now.
I put Ebony bridge pins on it and I'll probably put a bone saddle on it next.

But the F65ce is the greatest Guild guitar I've ever owned.
The D60 isn't close.
 

Pike

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
836
Reaction score
33
I spoke with both Hans and George Gruhn about the top on my D66, which, being so light in color, I thought might be englemann as well. They both assured me it is Sitka. Also, the D60 I had was heads above all the other Guilds I've owned except for the D66, better even than my D55, which is a great sounding guitar...

D66-2.jpg
 

Frosty

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
1,459
Reaction score
21
Location
New England, USA
George Gruhn is one man I would never second guess. I have corresponded with him a few times and the breadth and depth of his knowledge is astounding.

We all like our Guild guitars. Which is "better" is strictly a matter of personal opinion. The important thing is that we each feel inspired to play by the guitar(s) we have.
 

Pike

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
836
Reaction score
33
Which is "better" is strictly a matter of personal opinion.
True Frosty, but I also have no doubt my D66 is the best sounding spruce rosewood Guild dreadnaught I own or have owned...
 

twocorgis

Venerated Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
14,149
Reaction score
6,785
Location
Lawn Guyland
Guild Total
18
Frosty said:
We all like our Guild guitars. Which is "better" is strictly a matter of personal opinion. The important thing is that we each feel inspired to play by the guitar(s) we have.

Truer words were never spoken Frosty.

This place has also "inspired" me to expand my collection exponentially! :lol:
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,800
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
marcellis said:
The odd thing, the D60 sounds fantastic on fingerstyle Bossa Nova.
I don't think Gruhn & Walker designed the D60 to play Bossa Nova.
But it sounds better than any steel-stringed guitar I've ever played Bossa Nova on.
Strange.
But the F65ce is the greatest Guild guitar I've ever owned.
The D60 isn't close.
HI Marc: I remember the first time you said it sounded great for that Bossa Nova piece you posted. It reminded me of how I feel about my D25. How does it feel?
 

marcellis

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
1,734
Reaction score
3
Location
redneck riviera
It feels like a Guild dread. It's lightweight. I like that.
It's got the same neck as the D40, with nicer binding.

I haven't found the best strings for it yet.

Tone-wise, I'm not really impressed with it.
I guess I've had two exceptional-sounding Guilds,
an old flat-back D25 and an amazing F65ce.

Tonally, this guitar lags both.
 
Top