Guild neck sets...Sandy, you will want to read this!

[Bill Ashton]

...from the Music Emporium (Lexington, MA) blog on their website...

And Sandy, not trying to throw salt in the wounds, but might explain a lot...

The Music Emporium began operating in the late 1960s about the time that Guild Guitar was transitioning its guitar production from New Jersey to Rhode Island. I recall that only our first order of D-25s came from Hoboken and all later guitars came from Westerly. Overall the quality control was fine but there were a few guitars that came through with poor neck sets. We would return them and they would be replaced by the company without reservation or question. It was only recently that I read about the final inspector, an employee, being over-ruled by management with the result that "questionable" guitars were put in the distribution pipeline with inadequate adjustments. I guess corporate bean counters figured that it was cheaper to send out imperfect guitars to a market that, at that time, was made up of mostly full line music stores and a less sophisticated buyer than exsists today. There were very few specialized shops like The Music Emporium. The odds were in the Guild's favor that poor necksets would not be noticed or returned.

Moving forward four decades, this past winter we had the occasion to take in trade a 1969 M-20 all mahogany guitar that appeared to be in pristine condition. When I questioned the customer, she told me that her parents bought the guitar for her when she was a teenager. She found it hard to play and was so discouraged that it went into the closet for 40 years. Upon inspection I noticed the high action caused by a poor neck set. The bridge had been shaved down at one time. She claimed to have never had it adjusted in any way. I concluded that this had to be another example of the loose quality control at Guild during that era. I'm sure this would not happen in today's market.

We took the guitar in trade and had repairman Pat DiBurro perform a neck reset and replace the bridge on this lovely guitar. Guild guitar neck resets are very difficult because of the construction methods of that period, but the work is undetectable , the mahogany sound warm and rich, the ease of playing effortless. 40 years later, it has passed final inspection.

 

[Ridgemont]

Unfortunate but still interesting. I wonder how QC was during the late '90s considering my pristine D25 is need of a reset pretty soon.

 

[chazmo]

That's interesting. I've never heard that specific story / explanation for neck resets (from the factory) at that time. Quite a shame that someone would buy a new guitar and then put it in a closet all those years because it was unplayable. Sigh.

When I visit the 12-string forum on UMGF, I hear this complaint about 12-string guitars all the time, and all I can say is that as bad as a bad setup is on a 6-string, it's worse on a 12. However, a properly set-up 12 is *not* difficult to play, and people who give up 12-string because of that have done themselves a disservice (IMO).

 

[yettoblaster]

...Guild guitar neck resets are very difficult because of the construction methods of that period,...[/i]

That's intriguing.

What does it mean, do you suppose?

I always thought Guild flat-tops (and other Guilds) were pretty traditional designs.

I have never steamed a neck off, but I have built necks, etc, and installed them on a dread body previously built by someone else.

Was there something other than a traditional dovetail joint in use then?

 

[jcwu]

This might help explain why Westerly Guilds are held in such high regard.......

 

[chazmo]

Interesting side note... we learned at LMG2010 that New Hartford does not use hideglue. I don't know what Corona or Tacoma used, but it's definitely so in New Hartford. We were told that what they do use (sorry, I don't remember what it was) can be steamed off so that traditional repair is possible, but that it sets very quickly and therefore neck assembly (to the body) is something that has to be done *much* faster than in the past once the glue is applied. There were a few innovations discussed at the time to make that easier to do, and it was pretty interesting. Bottom line is that these guys don't want to be adjusting necks once their bonded on.

In any case, I think that there's a lot of QC around this process today and hard to imagine a bad neck angle getting out of the factory.

 

[cjd-player]

In any case, I think that there's a lot of QC around this process today and hard to imagine a bad neck angle getting out of the factory.

I'm not at all convinced of that Charlie. As Frank told us during the tour, a neck angle variation of 0.1 degree will result in a height difference at the bridge of almost 1/16th inch. I did the trig and checked him out; he's correct.

Those New Hartford neck joints are set by hand by the one assembly guy using what I thought was a very crude-looking jig. From what I saw of the operation, for him to be able to consistently hit that optimum neck angle within tenths of a degree using a chisel and sandpaper would be impossible.

I suspect that they are still using bridges of different heights at final assembly to make up for the variations in neck angles. The harsh truth is that some of those combinations will work out o.k. Others will require neck resets after various lengths of time depending upon how far the neck angle was initially off.

Just my take from the tour.


As far as I know, the only other woodworking glue besides hide glue that can be disassembled using steam is white PVA (think Elmer's). It's an excellent wood glue, so I'm not implying that it is a bad practice to use it. The yellow aliphatic resin wood glues typically require ammonia for disassembly.

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Interesting side note... we learned at LMG2010 that New Hartford does not use hideglue. I don't know what Corona or Tacoma used, but it's definitely so in New Hartford. We were told that what they do use (sorry, I don't remember what it was)

I believe it was "Titebond"

Though I don't remember which one it was.

If I recall correctly there was a quite heated thread a while ago concerning these glues.

 

[cjd-player]

The traditional Titebond is white PVA glue. (Same as Elmer's traditional white.)

The Titebond yellow aliphatic resin and other so-called yellow "woodworking" glues are newer.

 

[chazmo]

In any case, I think that there's a lot of QC around this process today and hard to imagine a bad neck angle getting out of the factory.

I'm not at all convinced of that Charlie. As Frank told us during the tour, a neck angle variation of 0.1 degree will result in a height difference at the bridge of almost 1/16th inch. I did the trig and checked him out; he's correct.

Those New Hartford neck joints are set by hand by the one assembly guy using what I thought was a very crude-looking jig. From what I saw of the operation, for him to be able to consistently hit that optimum neck angle within tenths of a degree using a chisel and sandpaper would be impossible.

I suspect that they are still using bridges of different heights at final assembly to make up for the variations in neck angles. The harsh truth is that some of those combinations will work out o.k. Others will require neck resets after various lengths of time depending upon how far the neck angle was off.

Just my take from the tour.

OK, fair enough... I do remember some innovations in the making of the neck that were supposed to help with a good set, Carl. I wish I could remember what they were. Darren pointed them out at the time, and maybe that's helping in the assembly part.

I wasn't aware of bridges being made in different heights, but that certainly is a possibility. I know they have a machine that cuts bridges and is capable of doing so in quantities much larger than production numbers...

Oh, and Grot.... That's it! Titebond for sure. Although, clearly from your picture that's a whole family of adhesives.

 

[cjd-player]

OK, fair enough... I do remember some innovations in the making of the neck that were supposed to help with a good set, Carl. I wish I could remember what they were. Darren pointed them out at the time, and maybe that's helping in the assembly part.

The jig he was using was a new invention.
I just was not very impressed with it.

I wasn't aware of bridges being made in different heights, but that certainly is a possibility.

Any manufacturer who hand cuts a dovetail neck joint has to do that because control of the neck angle is so squirrely. Otherwise, the saddle heights would be all over the place to make up for the varying neck angles.
So you assemble the guitar, put a straight edge along the neck, and determine what height of bridge is needed to line up with the neck. That does not mean that the neck angle is optimum for the string tension.

 

[charliea]

Varying bridge heights is one reason why there's no pat formula to indicate when a neck reset is due. Both of my 65's have shaved bridges, but both bridges are over 1/4". I've read posts here where guys report unmodified heights lower than that. Depends on the individual instrument, not the results of some straightedge test.

 

[fungus kahn]

Both of my 65's have shaved bridges, but both bridges are over 1/4". I've read posts here where guys report unmodified heights lower than that.

So how do you do that measurement? Is it from the front of the bridge (toward the soundhole) at the highest point or somewhere else?
Rob

 

[yettoblaster]

Sorry I asked.

I'm going back to archtops (sighs).


:mrgreen:

 

[charliea]

Both of my 65's have shaved bridges, but both bridges are over 1/4". I've read posts here where guys report unmodified heights lower than that.

So how do you do that measurement? Is it from the front of the bridge (toward the soundhole) at the highest point or somewhere else?
Rob

Front of the bridge, highest point. Both slope back toward the tail. Biggest problem with 12's, over time, seems to be break angle for the rear set of pins. Guild makes these guitars tall in the saddle, which is great for Wyatt Earp but doesn't provide a lot of wiggle room as the instrument reshapes itself over time.

 

[twocorgis]

...from the Music Emporium (Lexington, MA) blog on their website...

And Sandy, not trying to throw salt in the wounds, but might explain a lot...

The Music Emporium began operating in the late 1960s about the time that Guild Guitar was transitioning its guitar production from New Jersey to Rhode Island. I recall that only our first order of D-25s came from Hoboken and all later guitars came from Westerly. Overall the quality control was fine but there were a few guitars that came through with poor neck sets. We would return them and they would be replaced by the company without reservation or question. It was only recently that I read about the final inspector, an employee, being over-ruled by management with the result that "questionable" guitars were put in the distribution pipeline with inadequate adjustments. I guess corporate bean counters figured that it was cheaper to send out imperfect guitars to a market that, at that time, was made up of mostly full line music stores and a less sophisticated buyer than exsists today. There were very few specialized shops like The Music Emporium. The odds were in the Guild's favor that poor necksets would not be noticed or returned.

Well, that certainly does explain the situation with my D50. It's nice to know (not) that Guild pushed a bunch of guitars out the door that they knew were less than what they should have been. In all fairness, during that era Martin did it too (as shown by my less than stellar '75 D28), and Gibson probably did it a whole lot more during the '70s. Not that that makes it right or anything. :evil:

 

[devellis]

Regarding glues, I think when luthiers refer to Titebond, they mean aliphatic resin. This comes in two "flavors," Titebond original and Titebond II, but I believe both are aliphatic resins. The difference, as I understand it, is that one is water soluble and the other isn't; but steam will separate it none the less. With hide glue, both the head and moisture soften the glue. With non-soluble aliphatic resin, the heat of the steam readily softens the glue, even though it isn't water soluble. Titebond II has a bit of a bad reputation because it remains somewhat flexible and thus subject to "creep." A really tight dovetail won't creep -- it actually doesn't even need glue if it's tight enough. But, say, a fingerboard that's glued with Titebond II can creep over time. And when that happens, its efficiency as an antidote to neck angle shift (as a result of its attachment to the top beyond the 14th fret) is compromised. So, many luthiers who do nothing else with hide glue will use it for fingerboards. It's very rigid when dry and can be easily softened with heat and/or moisture for fingerboard replacement.

I think a lot of production guitars use suboptimal adhesives. Why? Because "suboptimal" adhesives often perform very well, with problems only occurring under either extreme circumstances or after quite extensive time has elapsed. Not that many 30-year-old guitars are still under warranty. If a guitar survives the first owner without adhesive problems, then those problems don't revert to the manufacturer. I've kept a guitar for more than 30 years (although I lost all the documentation I would have needed to try to get a factory reset). But the vast majority of guitar owners do not and some companies won't even warranty the need for a neck reset. Adhesives that are "good enough" are pretty much the norm in guitar building. Guild is by no means alone in that regard. Hide glue has its own problems and several very good builders (T. J. Thompson and Dana Bourgeois come to mind, both of whom use hide glue for some applications) doubt that it has any affect on tone and suggest that claims to the contrary are marketing.

As has been pointed out before, Guild necks construction makes resets harder because of the finish going on after the neck and body are joined. Getting an invisible seam after separating such a neck joint is not a trivial undertaking. It takes a real pro and it's not a quick finish repair to get it looking like nothing ever happened. In fact, it's not unusual for finished-over neck joints to look a bit wonky even if they've never been separated, because it's harder to buff properly in the tight corner where the side of the neck joins the rim of the guitar. As a result, the finish often pools in that crease, doesn't get buffed down, and is noticeably thicker there than it is elsewhere on the guitar.

No guitar is perfect. They all involve trade-offs. You can't have a guitar that is optimally responsive, optimally strong, and optimally affordable. Getting 2 out of the 3 would be a great success. Guilds do not do badly, relative to their peers. Their look, sound, durability, and cost are all pretty attractive. You can find instruments that may be better with respect to one or two of those criteria but past maybe one, you are almost certain to gain some improvement in one aspect by compromising another (like sacrificing durability or affordability to get a better looking, more responsive alternative).

As Guild enthusiasts, I think it's good to be realistic about the product we all admire -- and I think people here generally are. the good news is that even with a health dose of reality in the mix, Guilds are very, very nice guitars and even at their higher prices, are still quite affordable.

 

[adorshki]

I always thought Guild flat-tops (and other Guilds) were pretty traditional designs.
I have never steamed a neck off, but I have built necks, etc, and installed them on a dread body previously built by someone else.
Was there something other than a traditional dovetail joint in use then?

Nope, they're dovetails but I've seen reference to the AMOUNT of hideglue used being a source of difficulty. :lol:
Also, that being finished after neck was set, they require finish touch up after surgery.

 

[adorshki]

This might help explain why Westerly Guilds are held in such high regard.......

In my best Leo McKern voice (the bad guy in "HELP"): You naughty naughty boy! :lol:

 

[adorshki]

Unfortunate but still interesting. I wonder how QC was during the late '90s considering my pristine D25 is need of a reset pretty soon.

I gotta think there's another reason, since mine's rock solid with 1300 hours of actual playing and two refrets, with no bridge/saddle shaving.