Help with 1967 Starfire Tuning Stability

[Crash Arnold]

My uncle changed the tuners, and I think it was because the guitar wouldn't stay in tune. Well, it still doesn't. It's a 1967 Starfire without a Bigsby style bridge. Any suggestions? It's weird, because once I tune it, playing any chord (barre or open) it still sounds like it's out of tune. I think that's why he gave it to me, and of course I wanted it because it was my grandfather's guitar.

 

[Wilmywood]

My uncle changed the tuners, and I think it was because the guitar wouldn't stay in tune. Well, it still doesn't. It's a 1967 Starfire without a Bigsby style bridge. Any suggestions? It's weird, because once I tune it, playing any chord (barre or open) it still sounds like it's out of tune. I think that's why he gave it to me, and of course I wanted it because it was my grandfather's guitar.

Sounds like the intonation may be way off? Have you tried tuning it at a fret instead of using open strings? Does this guitar have a fixed or a floating bridge? Does it have a tailpiece or a stoptail?

 

[Default]

Post some pics, please? Might be easier to discuss if we can look at it.

 

[GAD]

Moved to its own thread because it's a completely different topic than the one in which it was posted.

 

[Crash Arnold]

Moved to its own thread because it's a completely different topic than the one in which it was posted.

Doh! Sorry about that.

 

[Crash Arnold]

 

[BradHK]

Pretty Starfire! One quick comment, based upon the photos, the bridge looks like it needs to be flipped 180 degrees and also appears to be intonated for a wound G. If you are using a plain G then you can adjust the saddle to intonate the G string using the two screws and you can also remove the saddle and flip it around to get more movement. Can you also post some close up photos of the front and rear of the headstock?

 

[Wilmywood]

I agree with Brad - looks like your bridge position is the culprit. The low E end should be farther from the nut than the high E end in general.
A half decent luthier could get you intonated in a hurry, looks like.

 

[SFIV1967]

Yes, Brad has all issues mentioned. Bridge needs to be rotated 180deg and the G string should be either wound or the saddle piece turned. Intonation of a floating bridge is always a bit tricky but there are plenty of videos and instructions.



The Hagström bridge on the Starfire first needs to be positioned correctly with the wooden foot (distance and angle) and next the 6 string pieces need to be adjusted string by string. That takes a good amount of time to intonate each single string correctly.

In general:

• First, bring your strings to pitch. Then, check the tuning of each string at the 12th fret. It should match.
• If the tuning at the 12th fret is sharp, you need to move the bridge back (away from the neck).
• If the tuning at the 12th fret is flat, you need to move the bridge forward (toward the neck).
• The intonation of your strings will not be even across the board and each will require slightly different lengths. It is very common for the bridge to be angled back farther on the bass side than the treble side.

But be careful, there are also "instruction videos" of "experts" where they still mounted the bridge 180 deg wrong as can be seen here:



Here are some maybe useful things explained:



Ralf

 

[atti3]

My uncle changed the tuners, and I think it was because the guitar wouldn't stay in tune. Well, it still doesn't. It's a 1967 Starfire without a Bigsby style bridge. Any suggestions? It's weird, because once I tune it, playing any chord (barre or open) it still sounds like it's out of tune. I think that's why he gave it to me, and of course I wanted it because it was my grandfather's guitar.

With many Bigsbys the axis has friction inside the bearings because the two shanks in which the bearings are located are disangled. The only way to corrct it is pulling out the 6 ball-end pins, remove the axle and carefully bend one of the shanks with strong pliers until the axle is freely aligned. Then insert the old 6 pins or, better still, new ones. And a better spring is available from Rockinger Guitars.

 

[SFIV1967]

With many Bigsbys the axis has friction inside the bearings because the two shanks in which the bearings are located are disangled. The only way to corrct it is pulling out the 6 ball-end pins, remove the axle and carefully bend one of the shanks with strong pliers until the axle is freely aligned. Then insert the old 6 pins or, better still, new ones. And a better spring is available from Rockinger Guitars.

That's correct Dieter, but the Starfire II guitar in question (see pictures in post #6) has a normal Guild harp tailpiece and no bigsby. I also misread his first post initially.

Ralf

 

[Crash Arnold]

Thanks to all of you!! I've been really busy with life in general and hadn't checked the response until today. It's funny, because my Grandpa had labelled the bridge with a sharpie as "T" and "B", so I put the "B" at the high E thinking that's what he meant. So, to make sure I understand:
1. Invert the bridge.
2. Intonate for a plain G string.
I might actually just change the G string to a wound because I'm a purist and if that's the way they did it back then, that's the way I want it.

TYVM, everybody! I'll let you know, and I'll take a photo of the headstock later.

 

[Crash Arnold]

Pretty Starfire! One quick comment, based upon the photos, the bridge looks like it needs to be flipped 180 degrees and also appears to be intonated for a wound G. If you are using a plain G then you can adjust the saddle to intonate the G string using the two screws and you can also remove the saddle and flip it around to get more movement. Can you also post some close up photos of the front and rear of the headstock?

Will post the pics later today...

 

[Wilmywood]

Thanks to all of you!! I've been really busy with life in general and hadn't checked the response until today. It's funny, because my Grandpa had labelled the bridge with a sharpie as "T" and "B", so I put the "B" at the high E thinking that's what he meant. So, to make sure I understand:
1. Invert the bridge.
2. Intonate for a plain G string.
I might actually just change the G string to a wound because I'm a purist and if that's the way they did it back then, that's the way I want it.

TYVM, everybody! I'll let you know, and I'll take a photo of the headstock later.

T is no doubt for Treble, B for Bass, or Top (high E) and Bottom (low E)

 

[swiveltung]

Based on the pics it appears the harp tailpiece is offset to the treble side and the strings are angled going to the bridge....?
I wonder if this is just the pic or true?
I wonder if in some way that effects tuning stability?
Is this model full hollow? How big are the strings? I know some full hollow guitars are effected a lot by temperature etc and are "bendy" a bit.

 

[Default]

Starfire 4-6s are semi hollow, with a full center block.

 

[Default]

I took My bigsby vibrato apart at one point and the grease that was inside around the bearings was completely dried out I cleaned it out and gave it a little bit of fresh grease and I haven't had any problems with the bigsby hanging up to this point.

 

[Default]

With many Bigsbys the axis has friction inside the bearings because the two shanks in which the bearings are located are disangled. The only way to corrct it is pulling out the 6 ball-end pins, remove the axle and carefully bend one of the shanks with strong pliers until the axle is freely aligned. Then insert the old 6 pins or, better still, new ones. And a better spring is available from Rockinger Guitars.

Uh, replace the pins? That doesn't make any sense to me. They secure the ball ends, and don't effect tuning, to my knowledge.

 

[Shakeylee]

keep in mind,tuning stability is almost never the tuning machines.

you've got a lot of good advice on intonation.

another option is to try other bridges and saddles.