Does anyone have any information about the Guild F312 for sale at Lark Street Music. I am taking a cross-continent look at it. It apparently is in need of a neck re-set, but it seems like a great backup to my 1985 F512. Is the neck thicker? It is 1.8 inches, I believe. Anyone know any of it’s story?
Info on F312 at Lark Street Music?
- Thread starter BOBREID
- Start date
F-412Spec
Member
No, but if you're going all that way to see it you might be close enough to sample mine in person. You in southern CA?
adorshki
Reverential Member
Hi Bob, welcome aboard! A link to the guitar would help.
At least some of the early F212/312's had flatter/wider necks, closer to the 2" nut width of a classical. It's what drew Ralph Towner to the brand initially.
From here https://twogoodears.blogspot.com/2010/10/music-and-its-tools-ralph-towners-guild.html
"Towner had his first F-212, right in time - after Paul Winter Consort - to join Weather Report for "The Moor" on "I sing the Body Electric". Shortly after followed at least two custom-made at Guild's workshop: a Florentine cutaway F-212 and an abalone-less fretboard F-512: the first mahoganny bodied and the second in Brazilian Rosewood, both with flat, classical-like 52 mm at nut fretboards as per Ralph's wishes, needing the same room he was used to while playing his classical guitar."
And the author's comment re the "off-the shelf" models he owned:
"...Not bad guitars, BUT I always had the feeling of being imprecise in picking and fingering with my left hand... then I discovered the F-312 (1965), F-112 (1974) and F-212 (1964), ALL with that so wise 52 mm at nut."
If you can post a link we can offer observations from a deep pool of knowledge here re condition if nothing else, and it's just possible on of our members, Hans Moust, may have info previously reported to him by s/n..
How "experienced" are you in buying "vintage player" instruments?. It'll help us answer according to your experience level. We don't hold inexperience against folks, just no need to tell you stuff you already know.
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Hey Adorski!
I am in the SF Bay Area. Do you have an F312? What can you tell me about yours? What year? How does it play? You point out that it may be flatter and wider. Is that compared to my F512? The F312 is a 1965.
I am in the SF Bay Area. Do you have an F312? What can you tell me about yours? What year? How does it play? You point out that it may be flatter and wider. Is that compared to my F512? The F312 is a 1965.
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HeyMikey
Enlightened Member
Link, pics?
These are great guitars. Mine has a nice bass response compared to the even smaller F112 I had, but likely not as full sounding as the 512 which I have not played. Mine is a 1969/70 and has a 1-13/16 nut though some very early ones were 2 inches.
Link, pictures? Have you asked the seller for measurements? Depending on the overall condition and price a neck reset may be worthwhile. If it has a lot of other issues and the asking price is high then it may not be worth it. More info will help.
These are great guitars. Mine has a nice bass response compared to the even smaller F112 I had, but likely not as full sounding as the 512 which I have not played. Mine is a 1969/70 and has a 1-13/16 nut though some very early ones were 2 inches.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
Hi Bob, no, don't own one, just a huge Guild fanboy with a pretty good memory for oddball details about models of interest, "most of the time".
Your '85 F512 has the most commonly built 1-13/16 nut as you mentioned. Part of the reason for the "thick" necks on Guild 12-ers up until '07 in Tacoma was the dual truss rod architecture. In '07 they introduced a single truss rod flanked by graphite stabilizing bars, allowing a slightly thinner neck profile, if that's your primary interest.
2 reasons I like the model(s): there's a Yardbirds connection on "Heart Full of Soul" (although I don't recall if it was ever determined if it was a 212 or a 312). I do seem to recall a photo somebody (Hans, our "guru"?) posted once of 2 12-er's in an equipment rack so it's possible they (Beck) had one of each. Very hard to distinguish between the 'hog and rosewood bodies in b/w photos.
The other reason (a 312 in particular) they're on my bucket list of models I'd like to at least try some day is that they're based on Guild's 16" lower bout F-body F-47. For me an ideal compromise of soundbox volume (in ci) and playing comfort. Have a maple shallow body arch-back cutaway a/e model, the F65ce, based on that outline, and a D25 and D40, being arched and flatback 'hog body dreads, respectively.
So have a curiosity about rosewood that hasn't been answered in the typical music store environment. Live about 5 minutes away from the shadow-of-its-former-self Guitar Showcase.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Looks good in photos, bridge looks correct (original) for example, looks like ebony bridge and fretboard?
What would be most useful is if seller can provide photos of neck angle. A neck reset on a piece that old may be imminent (or not!), that's the singe biggest potential repair expense affecting value.
A quick primer on checking neck alignment, note it's assumed the bridge height is "as built" for most useful results:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Combined height of bridge and saddle is ideally about 1/2", with about 5/16" being height of bridge from soundboard at top of its arc, the rest being saddle. Saddle height is fine-tuned to give best action along neck. Guild was known to use slightly "thin" bridges at some times and thicker ones at others. Suspect that period could be a "thin" one given Hoboken's rep for light builds, but don't really know.
I do think it's a prime candidate for one of the wide flat necks, though. Should be easy enough to check if the seller's knowledgable enough to measure it. They dated it correctly which is saying something, assuming the seller did the look-up.
Your query regarding history is well advised. Some don't mind an instrument that needs work, having a favored luthier in mind for that work, and others prefer a "no major effort required" or even pristine instrument.
As a general rule of thumb any neckset benefits from not being over-stressed, and although we've seen stories of Guild 12-ers kept strung with mediums even at standard tension for 40 years with no problems (10 years ago, to be fair), I'd still like to know the instrument was strung up with either lights or mediums tuned down for the bulk of its life.
Other possible "invisible" glitches could be a loose brace or shaved bridge (done in attempt to compensate for a collapsing neck set).
Another thought: If you're worried about somebody potentially swooping in on it before you have a chance to audition it, we're a pretty honorable group here, especially the guys with multi-multiple specimens, and most of the rest of us just kind of live vicariously through them and new members like yourself while enjoying our own little families.
So don't be nervous about posting a seller's link. From what I've seen lately the price might not surprise me, but I don't "follow the market".
Could even be Brazilian, wouldn't surprise me from '65. $3500.00 might even seem like a "reasonable ask" to me if you're looking for that kind of info. But stick around for better-informed opinions, especially if we can get a handle on the neck angle.
And btw there's a member here, Fixit, who used to work at Guild and has a universal 5-star rating for price and quality of work, like, even complete restoration. If you're willing to ship it to Florida. If it becomes relevant, let us know.
Adorski,Looks good in photos, bridge looks correct (original) for example, looks like ebony bridge and fretboard?
What would be most useful is if seller can provide photos of neck angle. A neck reset on a piece that old may be imminent (or not!), that's the singe biggest potential repair expense affecting value.
A quick primer on checking neck alignment, note it's assumed the bridge height is "as built" for most useful results:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Combined height of bridge and saddle is ideally about 1/2", with about 5/16" being height of bridge from soundboard at top of its arc, the rest being saddle. Saddle height is fine-tuned to give best action along neck. Guild was known to use slightly "thin" bridges at some times and thicker ones at others. Suspect that period could be a "thin" one given Hoboken's rep for light builds, but don't really know.
I do think it's a prime candidate for one of the wide flat necks, though. Should be easy enough to check if the seller's knowledgable enough to measure it. They dated it correctly which is saying something, assuming the seller did the look-up.
Your query regarding history is well advised. Some don't mind an instrument that needs work, having a favored luthier in mind for that work, and others prefer a "no major effort required" or even pristine instrument.
As a general rule of thumb any neckset benefits from not being over-stressed, and although we've seen stories of Guild 12-ers kept strung with mediums even at standard tension for 40 years with no problems (10 years ago, to be fair), I'd still like to know the instrument was strung up with either lights or mediums tuned down for the bulk of its life.
Other possible "invisible" glitches could be a loose brace or shaved bridge (done in attempt to compensate for a collapsing neck set).
Another thought: If you're worried about somebody potentially swooping in on it before you have a chance to audition it, we're a pretty honorable group here, especially the guys with multi-multiple specimens, and most of the rest of us just kind of live vicariously through them and new members like yourself while enjoying our own little families.
So don't be nervous about posting a seller's link. From what I've seen lately the price might not surprise me, but I don't "follow the market".
Could even be Brazilian, wouldn't surprise me from '65. $3500.00 might even seem like a "reasonable ask" to me if you're looking for that kind of info. But stick around for better-informed opinions, especially if we can get a handle on the neck angle.
And btw there's a member here, Fixit, who used to work at Guild and has a universal 5-star rating for price and quality of work, like, even complete restoration. If you're willing to ship it to Florida. If it becomes relevant, let us know.
Thank you all of that info. I have the guitar being shipped to me and will have my hands on it on Tuesday. It is indeed Brazilian. I have dealt with Lark Street before and like doing business with them. I know that the action above the 7th fret is not so comfortable, which means it needs a reset, to me. I know Guild resets can be problematic. I am asking my knowledgeable friends about suitable repair people to do the work. I was hoping maybe someone knew something about this particular guitar. I think it was listed for $3250 a while ago.
HeyMikey
Enlightened Member
Congrats Bob! Cosmetically it looks beautiful. For major work like a neck reset the go-to luthier, as Adorski mentioned, is LTG member Fixit. Otherwise known as Tom Jacobs. He is in Florida but even with shipping his prices are competitive and most importantly he will do the job properly.
I’ve also found that he will try to minimize the work and cost, and only do what is truly necessary. He often will often present options so you can decide what makes sense for your situation.
Before doing anything major I would spend some time with it and make sure the neck width and profile is one you will like.
www.jacobscustomguitars.com
I’ve also found that he will try to minimize the work and cost, and only do what is truly necessary. He often will often present options so you can decide what makes sense for your situation.
Before doing anything major I would spend some time with it and make sure the neck width and profile is one you will like.
Jacobs Custom Guitars – Custom Guitars & Guitar Repair
www.jacobscustomguitars.com
My concern is the neck profile and nut width. How it compares to my ‘85 f512. The rest seems ideal, but I want to feel it in my hands.Congrats Bob! Cosmetically it looks beautiful. For major work like a neck reset the go-to luthier, as Adorski mentioned, is LTG member Fixit. Otherwise known as Tom Jacobs. He is in Florida but even with shipping his prices are competitive and most importantly he will do the job properly.
I’ve also found that he will try to minimize the work and cost, and only do what is truly necessary. He often will often present options so you can decide what makes sense for your situation.
Before doing anything major I would spend some time with it and make sure the neck width and profile is one you will like.
Jacobs Custom Guitars – Custom Guitars & Guitar Repair
F-412Spec
Member
High action above fret 7 does not automatically mean a reset is needed. Truss adjustments may be required.
I assime you are referring to the finish work. Otherwise they are just like any other dovetail reset.
FYI - my F-312 (AS 124) nut width = 1.912".
Your pictures do look a bit like EIR on my monitor, but it's most likely slightly-rift-sawn Brazilian from that year.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Yep, I get it. And I'd check neck angle right away, because "high" action could simply be due to a "tall" saddle and poorly-adjusted relief.
if you do wind up needing repair and want to stay local, I have personal experience with Keith Holland's Guitar Hospital in Los Gatos, can recommend him.
Also, CB Perkins in San Jose was the Guild warranty repair shop for about 50 years. No longer a warranty shop but member @Br1ck has had work done there and was happy with results. (Flagged him in case my memory's wrong, he can correct me)
One thing I can assure you of is that repair costs are absolutely tied to the local cost of overhead and I'm sure you're aware in Silicon Valley that ain't cheap. I'd be willing to bet Fixit would be the best price for undisputed quality of work.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Actually over the years a list of reported complications has grown:
1: Luthier Flip Scipio worked at Guild in early '80's and reported the hideglue pot wasn't ever cleaned. Contaminants including metal shavings wound up in neck joints.
2: lf dissimilar woods were used for the neck and the neck block, they could have different coefficients of expansion. The neck can be "stuck" from swelling even though the glue's sufficiently softened to break free.
3: Multipiece necks can separate if it takes too long to get the glue softened.
4: The shallow neck heels can split during the removal
5: Guild routinely finished over the neck joint, so it needs to be scored along the seam to allow a clean "break" during a reset, and a truly complete repair would need finish touch-up.
Most of the problems aren't by any means "common" and were likely more prevalent at certain times, I think they finally started cleaning the gluepot, for example (
), but the result is Guilds and the 12-er's especially got a reputation of being difficult to reset.Yes, these were my concerns. It is important that it play in tune, as I will e performant g with it. So a reset looks to bein our future.Actually over the years a list of reported complications has grown:
1: Luthier Flip Scipio worked at Guild in early '80's and reported the hideglue pot wasn't ever cleaned. Contaminants including metal shavings wound up in neck joints.
2: lf dissimilar woods were used for the neck and the neck block, they could have different coefficients of expansion. The neck can be "stuck" from swelling even though the glue's sufficiently softened to break free.
3: Multipiece necks can separate if it takes too long to get the glue softened.
4: The shallow neck heels can split during the removal
5: Guild routinely finished over the neck joint, so it needs to be scored along the seam to allow a clean "break" during a reset, and a truly complete repair would need finish touch-up.
Most of the problems aren't by any means "common" and were likely more prevalent at certain times, I think they finally started cleaning the gluepot, for example (
F-412Spec
Member
I didn't encounter any of those problems when I did my two '60s F-312 resets, a 512 reset, and an F-30 reset. All of these guitars are pre-1975 so that's probably the difference. I do have hot, dry steam and a good neck removal jig. I haven't encountered any metal in the Guild joints; that would be a mess for sure. The finish scoring and retouch was expected, and fortunately it's lacquer so it blends OK. The shallow neck heels are definitely scary to look at - epecially after the reset.
To further complicate things, I nearly overset one of my 312s, so the heel is even smaller. This one has more tension-belly than most, so getting the action where I like it was quite a process. My typical Kimsey-style procedure (THANK YOU BRYAN) was just the first step in a long process. It sounds amazing, but I won't be surprised if it self-destructs in 15 or 20 years.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
Thanks for confirming the problems may be far less common than perceived by those who've had 'em.