Interesting observation about NS X175

[adorshki]

You're old guitar's woods have mellowed considerably over time, have had proper or improper humidification, stresses, lack of, etc. etc. etc. It's not going to be the same guitar, sanding it down is never going to make it be.

Actually, acoustically, 95%+ of the tone is created by the top, and that's why solid tops are desirable for acoustic flat-top instruments.
Solid ARCHED tops, however, are quite expensive because they have to be carved and are normally reserved for only the highest end archtops, like Benedettos, and I think at least some generations of Artist Awards (no time to search but we've discussed this before) .
Almost everything else is laminated and pressed, including all vintages of X-175's, "IIRC", and I'm quite certain a Japanese ES-375 knock-off from the '70's would be too. Laminating is actually desirable for amplified archtops because it helps squelch feedback tendencies by muffling frequency response to some degree.
The point being, when it's laminated, I don't think old or new-growth would have much impact on tone, in fact I've always thought that laminating pretty much eliminates "opening up" the way I understand the process.
I'll have to ponder on that a bit more.

 

[bth88]

Actually, acoustically, 95%+ of the tone is created by the top

95%+ is a pretty high percentage could you tell me where you're refferencing that from? If it's from your own personal feelings I'd say that your perception might be based on the instrument you're playing i.e. its construction and the way it's held when it's played. I'd say you would be correct in that it's a high percentage for sure maybe not that high? But yes in regards to my post you quoted my intensions were mostly focused on the top but worded as to not rule out the rest of the instrument.

that's why solid tops are desirable for acoustic flat-top instruments.

Funny side note. I used to work in a music store where we had Martin's abound and one of our favorites at the time was a brand new Martin 000-28 price tag almost $4000. Solid spruce book matched top. One day we got a shipment of several $300 000-28 knock-off's made in China. Mind you these are some phenomenal players right out of the box. Laminate spruce tops. That Martin and the China knock-off's all played and sounded like they were made in the same shop on the same day. Also poly vs lacquer. Can you guess which one I had to buy on the spot? :unconscious:

The point being, when it's laminated, I don't think old or new-growth would have much impact on tone

I have to totally disagree with you. That would be like saying there would be not a difference between a spruce or a mahogany lam top. You can deffinately hear a difference between the two.

I'll have to ponder on that a bit more.

I would do so

 

[bth88]

I do realize that there's probably a lot more going on than the finish, which is one of the many reasons I won't attempt the experiment of removing it - it's a lot more fun playing the things anyway!

You are so right Walter! It is a lot more fun playing them. I'll add it's a PITA to remove a poly finish. On a spruce top it would be even more so.

 

[SFIV1967]

Question: As it sounds to me a lot of the Westerly made archtop Guilds (and Bluesbirds for instance) between end of the 80s and 2001 had polyurethane finishes, so why are they considered "better" than the polyurethane finish on the Newark St. Guilds?
I never heard anybody who stripped his Westerly made Guild to get rid of the polyurethane finish.
Ralf

 

[NYWolf]

Question: As it sounds to me a lot of the Westerly made archtop Guilds (and Bluesbirds for instance) between end of the 80s and 2001 had polyurethane finishes, so why are they considered "better" than the polyurethane finish on the Newark St. Guilds?
I never heard anybody who stripped his Westerly made Guild to get rid of the polyurethane finish.
Ralf

And I was thinking the same thing. They do sound better, and they feel better too. It might be weird, but also my Starfire, when I open the case, it smells of wood or something, very pleasant. My NS X175 doesn't smell at all, and have a plastic feel about it. Different poly? I don't know, not an expert at all.

 

[bth88]

Question: so why are they considered "better" than the polyurethane finish on the Newark St. Guilds?
I never heard anybody who stripped his Westerly made Guild to get rid of the polyurethane finish.
Ralf

Is it really the finish we're talking about? I'd be interested in seeing what types, or more specifically sources and grades of wood going into construction not to mention the construction of the instruments themselves. Again aging does come into play, I'd like to see what people think of the NS versions 10-15 years from now compared to other runs.

Good materials are getting harder to source, and the better the wood a premium a manufacturer will pay. For instance old growth woods are so prized in high end furniture and instrument construction there's a whole new industry of loggers pulling ancient logs up from lakes and river beds.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/underwater-logging-zmaz98onzraw.aspx

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/01/11/deadhead-lumber-calls-logging-history-not-jerry-garcia

 

[SFIV1967]

Is it really the finish we're talking about?

I think in this context yes, as there was often the comment regarding the Newark St. models about "it's a good guitar but it is polyurethane finished". And that's why I wondered why I can't remember that anyone complained about the polyurethane finish on their many Westerly made solid body or archtop guitars from end of the 80ies to 2001. Both were polyurethane finished (hence I said earlier people need to be careful when talking about only "poly".). I am just curious. (And sure, independent of the finish the wood and construction and glue have an impact on sound, Wolfe Guitars once compared 3 factory new D-55 Guilds, and each had a different sound, or just take a couple of Martin D-28s - each different)
Ralf

 

[bth88]

I think in this context yes, as there was often the comment regarding the Newark St. models about "it's a good guitar but it is polyurethane finished". And that's why I wondered why I can't remember that anyone complained about the polyurethane finish on their many Westerly made solid body or archtop guitars from end of the 80ies to 2001. Both were polyurethane finished (hence I said earlier people need to be careful when talking about only "poly".). I am just curious. (And sure, independent of the finish the wood and construction and glue have an impact on sound, Wolfe Guitars once compared 3 factory new D-55 Guilds, and each had a different sound, or just take a couple of Martin D-28s - each different)
Ralf

I see what you're saying. IMO I think great guitar players concern themselves less with what makes a guitar a great player and concentrate more on playing great themselves.

I.e. if a Westerly made guitar plays great, sounds great to the player, why would they care what finish it has on it? Thus the guitar gets a great reputation as a great player and nobody cares. These days with the internet and armchair experts abound a new guitar is immediately dissected and questions fly "does it have a lacquer finish" "no? that's disappointing" etc etc. Btw poly finishes have come a long way, are getting better all the time with new formulations, and new products there of. I say that because I suspect the finish on the NS guitars is likely better in all departments than the poly finish used on the Westerly's.

 

[Walter Broes]

I see what you're saying. IMO I think great guitar players concern themselves less with what makes a guitar a great player and concentrate more on playing great themselves.

I.e. if a Westerly made guitar plays great, sounds great to the player, why would they care what finish it has on it? Thus the guitar gets a great reputation as a great player and nobody cares. These days with the internet and armchair experts abound a new guitar is immediately dissected and questions fly "does it have a lacquer finish" "no? that's disappointing" etc etc. Btw poly finishes have come a long way, are getting better all the time with new formulations, and new products there of. I say that because I suspect the finish on the NS guitars is likely better in all departments than the poly finish used on the Westerly's.

I get what you're saying, and I agree on most points.

But you might want to put a hint of nuance in there. I've done long, nerdy posts on this (and other) thread(s), and I realize I can get extremely geeky and nerdy about the details of what makes a guitar tick. I like guitars, and I find them interesting. Very geeky and nerdy guitar talk is one of the things guitar forums are for. They're a place where people who like that kind of thing can get together and discuss it.

But being into the geekier aspects of the thing does not automatically make one "an armchair expert". For the last twenty-five years, I've consistently made more than half my living with my guitar in hand. Most of it gigging, some of it teaching, and in recent years, my geeky guitar knowledge came in handy in the sense that it got me a day-and-a-half a week worth of job at a guitar store here in town.

My whole reason for dissecting the NSX15 is that I got one so I can leave my vintage ones at home for less deserving jobs, that I have an "expendable" guitar I don't mind taking in a gig bag or on annoying plane rides where I don't know how much of a hard time I'll get for taking a guitar on board. And it turns out that in some respects, it gets close to the vintage guitars I'm so used to, in others, it's a little lacking or dissappointing. And it would seem to me that a guitar forum is one of the better places to discuss that kind of thing.

 

[NYWolf]

I suspect the finish on the NS guitars is likely better in all departments than the poly finish used on the Westerly's.

No it's not. It's not better in any department. I have example of each, and unless you like a plastic feel, there's no question IMO that the Westerly guitar has superior finish.

 

[SFIV1967]

No it's not. It's not better in any department. I have example of each, and unless you like a plastic feel, there's no question IMO that the Westerly guitar has superior finish.

I agree with that observation. My year 2000 Westerly Bluesbird with Polyurethane finish is really feeling and looking more like a Nitro finish to me, whereas the Newark St. guitars definitely have a thicker and much shinier finish as they look and feel.
Ralf

 

[bth88]

No it's not. It's not better in any department. I have example of each, and unless you like a plastic feel, there's no question IMO that the Westerly guitar has superior finish.

I agree with that observation. My year 2000 Westerly Bluesbird with Polyurethane finish is really feeling and looking more like a Nitro finish to me, whereas the Newark St. guitars definitely have a thicker and much shinier finish as they look and feel.
Ralf

Sorry about that, I'll go into better detail for you both. I'm talking about the material itself, not the mils aka thickness it was shot on your guitars.

As a side note you can get poly finishes in various sheen's and you can also get lacquer in various sheen's. FWIW I've shot both professionally, and yes you can get high gloss lacquer that looks every bit as shiny as the NS high gloss poly finishes you're seeing.

I have a Gibson shot with lacquer sitting right next to the X-175. I just picked them both up to feel the "plastic feeling" your talking about NYWolf. IDK they both feel like guitars to me, ymmv.

 

[richly harmonic]

Wow! I was so totally down for getting a NS Guild, especially a Starfire III, but after reading this I'm getting a bit scared or at least very cautious.

Now although it would be nice for me to get my hands on an old vintage Guild, they just don't always show up in "amazing" or at least "descent" shape/condition for a reasonable price, let alone having to watch the 'Bay or Craig's List, which can at times be often, or just hardly ever. I do not want to be waiting months or possibly years to get my first descent hollow body. I know for some it may very well be worth the wait. But for someone who wants to get back into electric guitar playing, seriously.

My main intention for getting back into guitar playing, especially the electric, was to start fresh, and especially have a descent thin-line hollow body guitar, and I'd like to get a descent tube amp (i.e. Vox AC4 or 15 HW)...as well as fitted with AlNiCo speakers of sorts. I've never even owned a hollow body before, as I've been mostly playing, owning and selling solid-body guitars throughout my early guitar-playing years (i.e. high school, college, post-college, work and school, study abroad, work abroad, etc).

Are you even telling me that even through a good custom-made tube amp, with good AlNiCo speakers, and good NOS tubes (or equivalents) , good PTP wiring, good transformers, high quality components, and a PTP tube-driven outboard spring reverb unit...that I would still not be able to put out a pretty "darn good" or "amazing" 60's tone!?

Even after installing a Tru-Arc bridge (SS or Al), and rewinding the bridge p/u to a vintage 7.8k spec; would I not still be able to put out a pretty convincing, soul-catching, air-moving, chiming, sparkling, twanging, vintage 60s sound, i.e. Beau Brummels, Electric Prunes (though they mainly used a Les Paul), Kinks, etc.???

Now I'm getting a bit itchy feet about all this, but perhaps I shouldn't be. Maybe I'm thinking too much...hmmm that Gretsch Annie G6118T or CG 6122-1962 is looking better at this rate (minus the upgrade of TV Jones Classics to replace the HS Filters).
Oh but wait, the new Gretsch Professionals also have some structural/bracing/soundboard construction differences compared to the original Gretsches:confusion: from the 50s and 60s....hmmm. I know Gretsches are different beasts altogther, but I'm just sayin'.

 

[NYWolf]

Wow! I was so totally down for getting a NS Guild, especially a Starfire III, but after reading this I'm getting a bit scared or at least very cautious.

Now although it would be nice for me to get my hands on an old vintage Guild, they just don't always show up in "amazing" or at least "descent" shape/condition for a reasonable price, let alone having to watch the 'Bay or Craig's List, which can at times be often, or just hardly ever. I do not want to be waiting months or possibly years to get my first descent hollow body. I know for some it may very well be worth the wait. But for someone who wants to get back into electric guitar playing, seriously.

My main intention for getting back into guitar playing, especially the electric, was to start fresh, and especially have a descent thin-line hollow body guitar, and I'd like to get a descent tube amp (i.e. Vox AC4 or 15 HW)...as well as fitted with AlNiCo speakers of sorts. I've never even owned a hollow body before, as I've been mostly playing, owning and selling solid-body guitars throughout my early guitar-playing years (i.e. high school, college, post-college, work and school, study abroad, work abroad, etc).

Are you even telling me that even through a good custom-made tube amp, with good AlNiCo speakers, and good NOS tubes (or equivalents) , good PTP wiring, good transformers, high quality components, and a PTP tube-driven outboard spring reverb unit...that I would still not be able to put out a pretty "darn good" or "amazing" 60's tone!?

Even after installing a Tru-Arc bridge (SS or Al), and rewinding the bridge p/u to a vintage 7.8k spec; would I not still be able to put out a pretty convincing, soul-catching, air-moving, chiming, sparkling, twanging, vintage 60s sound, i.e. Beau Brummels, Electric Prunes (though they mainly used a Les Paul), Kinks, etc.???

Now I'm getting a bit itchy feet about all this, but perhaps I shouldn't be. Maybe I'm thinking too much...hmmm that Gretsch Annie G6118T or CG 6122-1962 is looking better at this rate (minus the upgrade of TV Jones Classics to replace the HS Filters).
Oh but wait, the new Gretsch Professionals also have some structural/bracing/soundboard construction differences compared to the original Gretsches:confusion: from the 50s and 60s....hmmm. I know Gretsches are different beasts altogther, but I'm just sayin'.

No man, with a good tube amp NS guitars sound pretty good, you should be able to get the tone you want, no problem.

 

[Walter Broes]

Wow! I was so totally down for getting a NS Guild, especially a Starfire III, but after reading this I'm getting a bit scared or at least very cautious.

Don't be. We're nitpicking to the extreme here. The NS guitars are pretty amazing value for money, and pretty dang great guitars.

 

[richly harmonic]

Walter and NYWolf, thanks for that quick relief. I was getting a bit worried for a moment there. I'm not saying that what you guys experiencing or observing witht the older or vintage Guilds isn't true or invalid. I'm sure there are some "particular" differences that, with an experienced and keen ear, one can definitely set some differences apart.

I'm no one to judge between vintage Guilds, later era ones, and recent NS Guilds; let alone distinguishing the finer details and differences. And if I had been playing and collecting various Guilds from various eras, I'm sure I would notice some fine differences as well.

However, I'm still mostly set on the SF III. I'm sorry, but I think that Beau Brummels twangle really makes me "Laugh Laugh" with joy, and the tones coming from the Kinks really "Got Me"!

Of course, the SF does more than just those tones, but it's a good starting point for a wide pallete of other sonic possibilities, I can imagine.

 

[Default]

A decent tube amp is more important than the guitar finish. Early on, I went the "good guitar, cheap amp" route and that has fail all over it.

 

[bluesypicky]

A decent tube amp is more important than the guitar finish. Early on, I went the "good guitar, cheap amp" route and that has fail all over it.

A truer statement has never been said. Steve you make me proud once more.

Much easier to make a crappy guitar sound good with a good amp (and in no way am I implying that 'crappy" applies to any NS Guild... for the records, lawyers and prosecutors) :barbershop_quartet_ than making a crappy amp sound good with ANY guitar.

 

[Walter Broes]

Absolutely!! I'd much rather be stuck with a Squier Affinity strat and a 58 Bassman than with a 58 X500 and a Squier amp!

 

[Zelja]

I agree fully with the esteemed 3 gents above. A really good amp is far more important to the tone than the guitar. No guitar will sound good through a really bad amp.

I have an Indonesion Epi Crestwood with a pickup upgrade & it sounds damn good through my 64 Vibrolux and my Valvetech Hayseed (AC30 clone). Most cheap guitars these days are reasonably playable due to CNC production etc - wasn't always the case when I was a boy...