NBD: '73 M85 II SB bass.

gilded

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Well, Gentlemen, this has been a double Guild kind of month. I bought this bass at the start of April and a '71 S-100 Std. yesterday.

A guy had the bass for five years, sitting in the case. He said that the neck was bowed (it was) and he wanted to either sell it or fix it (the dread Amateur Repairman!).

I went up to his house in the middle of the night and checked out the bass. It was a dimly lit house, as Seller was watching a Southern Rock band on a Big Screen. I ran my hand up and down the neck several times. Twice I felt something sharp, so I brought a small flashlight in from my car and found an ear crack at the foot of the headstock on the Low E side. The truss rod nut was buried into the neck, too, symptomatic of trying to adjust the neck bow!

The Seller was really embarrassed. He was a nice, honest guy. He was sure that the neck wasn't cracked when he bought it! We finally decided that it was a 'case crack incident', as the case, while a Guild, was way too tight where the headstock lay in the case.

I bought the bass and took it to my luthier. He looked at it and pulled TWO truss rod nuts, not one, out of the rod channel!! He took the fingerboard off between the nut and the first fret and discovered that a small piece of Maple that lay between the strike-plate of the nut and the bottom of the fingerboard had given way, which allowed the strike-plate to move down into the interior of the neck. He lubed the truss rod, then:

1. Made a harder, longer piece of Maple to use as a shim between the finger board and the strike-plate

2. He also made a slightly deeper strike plate to i) allow one end to sit squarely against the crushed wood area at the top of the truss rod channel and ii) allow the other end to be properly positioned at the base of the headstock truss rod nut slot

3. He buttoned it up the finger board,

4. Fixed the the ear crack on the headstock,

5. Replaced the fingerboard section,

6. Lacquered over the sides of the fingerboard,

7. Heat-treated the neck,

8, Planed the fret-board,

9. Re-fretted the neck with the same size wire that was on it,

10. Made three rosewood wooden bridge saddles,

11. Found me a clean set of medium scale D'Addario round-wounds in his good used pile,

12. Wet-sanded the lacquer-work on the edges of the first fingerboard section,

13. Put a pile of towels in the case to get the back of the headstock off of the case floor and, finally, sent me on my way! Whew!

The bass plays very well, The 'suck switch' works on the neck pickup only, which is how it's supposed to be. The Big Guild Humbuckers sound fine, but I would like to hear them with Thomastik strings, before I pass final judgement.

Here are some low resolution cell phone pics:




 

gilded

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More pics

More pics:
Which saddle is the original? Low E!


You can see the faint out line of the Ear Crack near the bass of the headstock. Mark (my repairman) could have shaded some lacquer onto the faint 'white wood' outline, but he thinks that the stain might compromise the glue. Who am I to disagree?

Nothing wrong with the heel of the neck, I just threw this pic in for filler, because my posts are so short :LOL:


That's it, hope this is an informative thread for all of my LTG friends. M85's are way cool, like having the best leather jacket in your high school class.

The only problem is weight. The bass weighs about 9.5 lbs. That's very light for an M85, but I'm hitting the BIG Six-O at the end of May and I don't know if I have the ability to stand up and play a heavy bass all night any more. My back went out last December and I haven't lifted anything heavier than a Princeton Reverb since then. As well, my last MRI was pretty scary. Terms like 'triangulated canal stenosis' and arthritic 'foraminal arch narrowing' tend to take the Rock away and put you in a... Rocker!
 

twocorgis

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Wow, that is quite some story Harry! I think it's great that you brought this one back from the brink, and saved it from the ravages of somebody like Hankeroo on eBay. I also see that you have a very talented luthier, and that's some downright artistic work he did with this one.

Have you played this one enough now that you're able to form an opinion on how it sounds? I know we have at least one member here (Hieronymous IIRC) that has one and loves it.
 

bluesypicky

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gilded

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Cool indeed! And as Sandy said, great job by your guitar tech.
Now I have two questions for you Harry:
1- Do you always pop up in the middle of the night to check out guitars for sale? :)
2- You know that you are now bound to participate in the "Best looking pair contest" as illustrated here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltgvB/upload/showthread.php?34093-1974-Jetstar-question don't ya? Atta boy! :)

I often pop up in the middle of the night......

Bluesy, you win best looking pair, hands down!

A lot, no, most of guitars I buy wouldn't fit into the best-looking category. My Mom used to buy busted-up antique furniture and get it fixed. I'm the same way. I love fixing old stuff up. If I'm fearless about it, it's only because I have a talented and experienced luthier. People send me guitars from all over the States to have Mark work on them. He made a neck for a 1940 D'Angelico a couple of years ago, re-topped a '57 Martin D-28 with Adirondack wood for me about 10 years ago, re-braced an acoustic Super 400 (fitted for pickups by a former owner, the top to begin to flatten out under the bridge), etc. He's done about 20 neck sets for me over the years. He's a good one!

One local repairman wound up with a 40's Gibson LG2 guitar (f30 size guitar) that had literally been pulled out of a mobile home by a tornado and deposited in a tree 1/2 a mile away. Guess who wound up fixing the crushed back? Mark!

The mark of a talented repairman is Invisibility, as in 'the work has been done, but you don't know it'. I had a conversation with Bill Collings 25 years ago, back when the world was young. He told me about standing in George Gruhn's guitar shop in Nashville and looking at a whole row of vintage guitars. He told me that everyone had been repaired, every one, but you'd only see it if you were a repairman. So we all think of old guitars as being special, but in truth without a good repairman they are often piles of old wood.

Here's a pic of Mark with my bass:


Clean Shop, huh? Looks like Carlo Greco's bench, doesn't it?
 

Wilfred

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Great thread. I love things, and certainly guitars, with a story to tell. And this is a great story!
 

gilded

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....Have you played this one enough now that you're able to form an opinion on how it sounds? I know we have at least one member here (Hieronymous IIRC) that has one and loves it.

Sandy, I sort of passed your question up there, didn't I? Apologies, mate.

The Answer is, no I haven't. Oh, I A/B'd it a little with my '66 SF I bass, but I don't think it was a fair comparison as Thomastik strings are such an important part of what I like about my Starfire Bass. That said, I think I liked my SF I better, but it was like comparing apples and oranges. The action is on the deck on the M85 and the SF I has relatively high action with the aforementioned Thomastiks.

What can I tell you? Well:

1. Guild Bassbuckers are very loud compared to Bisonic pickups. That was interesting. I kind of liked the 'suck switch', too, but maybe I'll grow out of it.

2. If this were a few years ago, I would think about ordering some Dark Stars for the M85, but I don't want to spend $500 a pickup for something I may not use as my no. 1 bass.

3. The M85 plays fine at low volumes, but, I have something I want you to think about. An M85 is one big slab of Mahogany, with a 'hogany neck, too. Some instruments shine in high volume situations, like a Les Paul. If you are playing in front of an 8x10" SVT cabinet, moving a lot of air, the thick Mahog' body of the M85 will come alive and be ready to play, while a SF bass might start feeding back. That might not seem logical but I also have a '65 ES 335 and if you stand in front of a Marshall half stack with it and start wailing, you can feel the air move off of the top, especially around the F-hole area. Accordingly, the M85 might well 'straighten up and fly right' when other basses start to fall out of the sky!

I'll get back to you, when I've got some more time in with the M85. HH
 

twocorgis

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Sandy, I sort of passed your question up there, didn't I? Apologies, mate.

The Answer is, no I haven't. Oh, I A/B'd it a little with my '66 SF I bass, but I don't think it was a fair comparison as Thomastik strings are such an important part of what I like about my Starfire Bass. That said, I think I liked my SF I better, but it was like comparing apples and oranges. The action is on the deck on the M85 and the SF I has relatively high action with the aforementioned Thomastiks.

What can I tell you? Well:

1. Guild Bassbuckers are very loud compared to Bisonic pickups. That was interesting. I kind of liked the 'suck switch', too, but maybe I'd grow out of it.

2. If this were a few years ago, I would think about ordering some Dark Stars for the M85, but I don't want to spend $500 a pickup for something I may not use as my no. 1 bass.

3. The M85 plays fine at low volumes, but, I have something I want you to think about. An M85 is one big slab of Mahogany, with a 'hogany neck, too. Some instruments shine in high volume situations, like a Les Paul. If you are playing in front of an 8x10" SVT cabinet, moving a lot of air, the thick Mahog' body of the M85 will come alive and be ready to play, while a SF bass might start feeding back. That might not seem logical but I also have a '65 ES 335 and if you stand in front of a Marshall half stack with it and start wailing, you can feel the air move off of the top, especially around the F-hole area. Accordingly, the M85 might well 'straighten up and fly right' when other basses start to fall out of the sky!

I'll get back to you, when I've got some more time in with the M85. HH

Thanks for the critique Harry. I can certainly understand your high volume reference, as back in the day I used to do a lot of that! In my case, it was with my Fender P-Bass and a Sunn 200S with a 2x15 EV SRO cabinet, and yes, it did move a lot of air! As you say, I'm not all that sure how a Starfire Bass would perform under such conditions, but that's pretty much a moot point, as I don't do silly things like that anymore. ;)

I haven't talked to bassmyf lately, and I'm not sure if he's back on board here yet. I'll try to give him a holler to see what his experiences are with the Dark Starred M85 that I decided not to keep. I know that's not his main gigging bass, and he mostly plays small venues these days, but hopefully he has enough playing time on it by now to have an opinion.
 

fronobulax

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1. Guild Bassbuckers are very loud compared to Bisonic pickups. That was interesting. I kind of liked the 'suck switch', too, but maybe I'd grow out of it.

Interesting. I would not have said that based on comparing my '67 SF and '71 JS II. It may be that the electronics are different between my JS and and your M85. Very interesting thread that I am not going to search for, about the humbuckers and the suck switch and there is a mod that seems to make the humbucker sound louder and better.

Your point about volume is interesting but you may find that with your ears and back functioning at reduced effectiveness you are better off playing at lower volumes, even if that means saying goodby to the drummer. I used Mrs. Fro's Princeton Reverb as the "I can carry a bass amp in one hand" alternative for a while but when I relieved mellowgerman of his Line 6, I got an amp that was lighter, probably louder, and much better suited for bass. Just sayin'
 

twocorgis

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I used Mrs. Fro's Princeton Reverb as the "I can carry a bass amp in one hand" alternative for a while but when I relieved mellowgerman of his Line 6, I got an amp that was lighter, probably louder, and much better suited for bass. Just sayin'

When it comes to bass amps that you can carry with one hand, I took bassmyf's advice and bought a Harke Kickback 12, and I'm very glad I did. It's 125 watts, is pretty loud considering its size, and sounds fantastic with Bisonics, the EMGs in the Pilot, and the pickup in the Casady bass particularly. I even played a large venue with it for stage volume, and used the XLR out to go direct, and it worked quite well in that application too. Jeff said "you can thank me later", and I sure did! It was less than $300 for a "refurbished" (looked new and had the same warranty) from 8th Street Music. Larry Hartke is a local Long Island guy too, and really stands behind his products.
 

hagmeat

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Hi Harry, I`m a little late to the party but great story. Your luthier has done a great job. Just wondering if you have had more
playtime with the bass in order to form any different opinions on the way the pickups sound ? You mentioned that "the suck switch
works on the the neck pickup only, which is how it`s supposed to be", on my JS2 the suck switch only works when both pickups are
engaged. Was your bass originally wired for the suck switch to only work with the neck pickup or did you luthier change the wiring
to what he thought it should be ?
Cheers. Rob
 

gilded

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Hi Harry, I`m a little late to the party but great story. Your luthier has done a great job. Just wondering if you have had more
playtime with the bass in order to form any different opinions on the way the pickups sound ? You mentioned that "the suck switch
works on the the neck pickup only, which is how it`s supposed to be", on my JS2 the suck switch only works when both pickups are
engaged. Was your bass originally wired for the suck switch to only work with the neck pickup or did you luthier change the wiring
to what he thought it should be ?
Cheers. Rob

Wow, Rob, it has been a while! When I saw the topic just now I thought, 'Somebody else has an M85 II?!? No kidding!' :)

What does the M85 II sound like? Well, History Lesson first. I really didn't like Guild bass-humbuckers in '74-'75, when I had a JS II fretless. They sounded like mud. But times have changed and amps are better. Make that, Amps Are A Lot Better. Now, those mudbucker's sound real good with my friend's Genz Benz Streamliner and my old SWR super redhead. The bass works well with Rock and Roll, Blues and something I call 'Riff Rock'. Example: When I play Funk 49 with my band, it just kills! I play that line on both Bass and Guitar and believe me, the M85 II is just as easy to play as the Six String Alternative. It's wickedly fast, but that may be the brand new frets. It's just a fun, fun bass. Makes for lots of smiles. Really.

I like the baritone/suck switch, too, but I don't know if I would use it much, at least not on the fly, i.e., switching in and out in the same song.
And yes, my luthier said the switch on the neck pickup only was original to the harness. If you talk to the Corgi owner, he'll tell you that the early guilds are like that.

I would like to try some Thomastik Flats on it, but I haven't got around to it. I know they would sound great because I put them on a friend's SF II bass from the '90's and they were absolutely fab.

I tend to think of it as a rock-ier bass than the '66 SF I, but no small part of that is the round-wound strings competing with Thomastiks. As it stands now, if I had to play an entire gig with either the M85 or the SF I, I'd probably go with M85, because it's sort of halfway between a Fender 34" scaled bass and the woodsy, roots-rock sound of the Bisonic Equipped Starfire I. If it had Dark Stars in it, it might be even better!

Having said all this, I don't know if I'm going to keep it. It's a heavy bass, about 9.5 lbs. I wear it up high to get the strings where I want them. It's just too much weight for this 60 year old delinquent with a bad back. Again, you might ask Sandy about the weight thing. It wouldn't have bothered me a few years ago, but it sure does now!

Holler back if you have any more questions! HH

PS Rob, I have a question for you. Do you think that your long scale JS is better for some purposes than your 30" JS? If you have an opinion, I'd like to hear it! HH
 
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hagmeat

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Thanks for the quick and detailed reply Harry. WOW ! Riff Rock ! Now that`s what I like to hear mate.
James Gang are great. Please let me know if you ever decide to part with the bass.

I haven`t tried Thomastik Flats before, I`ve been using D`Addario half rounds (45 -100) regular light gauge
long scale strings on my basses and I really like the feel and sound of them.

I have the `71 JS2 and the B-301 tuned down half a step. I have the `77 JS2 and the SB-201 tuned to standard.

I prefer the feel of the long scale necks just because they fit better in my hand (D shape neck). My long scale JS2
is probably more versatile because it has the Guild single coil pickups (it was a prototype) but it is very prone to
severe neck dive, hence the longer top horns on the later model Guild basses.

My `71 with the Guildbuckers is a pure rock monster, very well suited to playing
mid pace to slow Sabbath style riffs. The neck is not as wide as the long scales and has more of a C shape.
The sound is a lot meatier and less defined (not a bad thing) than my other basses that have the single coils.

Cheers. Rob
 
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fronobulax

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Hi Harry, I`m a little late to the party but great story. Your luthier has done a great job. Just wondering if you have had more
playtime with the bass in order to form any different opinions on the way the pickups sound ? You mentioned that "the suck switch
works on the the neck pickup only, which is how it`s supposed to be", on my JS2 the suck switch only works when both pickups are
engaged. Was your bass originally wired for the suck switch to only work with the neck pickup or did you luthier change the wiring
to what he thought it should be ?
Cheers. Rob

The suck switch on my '71 JS II only works on the neck pickup and as the original owner I can say with confidence that is the way it left the factory.
 

hagmeat

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The suck switch on my '71 JS II only works on the neck pickup and as the original owner I can say with confidence that is the way it left the factory.

Thanks Frono that`s interesting. Somebody must have fiddled with the electrics on mine before I got it.
Strangely enough, my JS2 LS with the Guild single coils is also wired the same way with the suck switch
only working when both pickups are activated. They both sound great the way they are so I`ll leave them like that.
Cheers. Rob.
 

gilded

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Maybe both styles of wiring are correct. Guild may have just wired them differently as the '70's wore on; an Engineering Change, if you will.

As well, the harnesses might have been a pre-assembled item made by a designated group of employees, something that the 'final-assembly workers' could grab out of a supply bin. Knowing that Guild never wasted anything, it is likely that both old and new-style harnesses were literally stocked in the same bin at the factory for the final assembly workers to grab as needed. That way, if somebody 'dug deep enough into the bin' in 1978, they might have come up with a old '72 wiring harness. I dunno, just a guess.

hh
 
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fronobulax

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Well, never say never when talking about Guild with respect to catalog specs and dates, but I have never seen any flavor of JS bass (70-77) that had a Deep/Hard switch that worked on both pickups and had a clean enough ownership record to minimize the the possibility that it was a post-factory mod.

Tangentially, I was looking at advertising here and note pictures of a JS fretless that doesn't have the switch and a Bisonic equipped JS II that doesn't have the switch.

Quite a veer from a M-85 II, isn't it? I should note that I have learned not to generalize from contemporary instruments to M-85's because when I do I am inevitably wrong.
 

hagmeat

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Thanks Frono that`s interesting. Somebody must have fiddled with the electrics on mine before I got it.
Strangely enough, my JS2 LS with the Guild single coils is also wired the same way with the suck switch
only working when both pickups are activated. They both sound great the way they are so I`ll leave them like that.
Cheers. Rob.

Update - I pulled out the `71 JS2 for a play tonight and discovered that the suck switch does actually work on the neck pickup
and in the middle position, but not with the bridge pickup. I`m afraid short term memory loss is creeping in. Insert red faced emoticon here.
 

gilded

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Ron,
The baritone/suck effect works on mine the same way. That effect can be heard as working whether the bass pickup is selected by itself or with both pickups engaged, but it's strictly transformational to the neck pickup alone!
gilded
 
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