New here .Need some advice please

[Johnt]

So, what do I have here?
bought 3 years ago from a very reputable dealer, who in turn bought it from John English’s daughter in Vegas.
John was the head of the Fender custom shop and I’m led to believe this was his personal 12 string.
it has no label, no serial number but is truly a majestic instrument.
I want to sell it now as arthritis and 12 strings don’t always go hand in hand.

what do you think ?
what is it worth?

 

[F312]

JF-30 12 Jumbo. I think it looks nice.

 

[Stuball48]

Beautiful guitar in excellent shape it appears. Good luck with the sale. No idea of value. But welcome to a great forum and someone will have your answers.

 

[Heath]

Beautiful guitar. Looks like there is no serial number on the back of the headstock(?)

 

[adorshki]

So, what do I have here?
bought 3 years ago from a very reputable dealer, who in turn bought it from John English’s daughter in Vegas.
John was the head of the Fender custom shop and I’m led to believe this was his personal 12 string.
it has no label, no serial number but is truly a majestic instrument.
I want to sell it now as arthritis and 12 strings don’t always go hand in hand.

what do you think ?
what is it worth?

Welcome aboard John!
Assuming the "backstory" is correct (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), I'd bet that's a Corona built JF30-12.

Lack of s/n stamp on headstock in particular makes me wonder if it might be a "first article", ie, a piece built 100% to production standards and using production techniques to ensure everything is as it should be before commencing production.

We know when Fender moved Guild to Corona all their builders needed to be trained in acoustic build techniques, and thus there were a lot of "test" and "practice builds" of different models that weren't intended for retail sale, thus no s/n would be needed..

And that might explain how the head of the Corona Custom Shop got hold of it.

But that's sheer conjecture on my part, we just know it's extremely rare to see guitars without s/n's from prior to '05 when they stopped stamping the headstocks.

The tough part is value: absent the s/n, there's no definitive proof this is a "real" JF30-12 or when it was built. That could be very relevant to a "collector" who might believe these will increase in value in future, and it makes an appraiser's task that much more difficult if for example some build periods are more desirable than others.

I'm not aware of that with JF30-12's, and they're not particularly "collectible" except maybe to guys like us, but the principle still applies.

And take into account the corollary, if there's no s/n, how do we know it's a guitar that was built to production standards and not possibly doomed to a short than normal life because it was simply a test bed for an untried build technique that didn't pan out?

I'd look for an appraiser who's got experience in musical instruments for a "real" appraisal.

Given JF30-12's in very good condition with case are probably $2k-2500.00 in the market right now, it's not like we're talking a potential loss of tens of thousands or anything, but the lack of s/n might put off a serious buyer. Having an appraisal at least may help 'em feel comfortable with it, that it's "for real", for example.

What would be best is if you could get a letter from Mr. English describing guitar's provenance. That might actually increase value, but without it, you got nothin' but a story, no snark intended.


It does look like a real nice piece.

 

[GAD]

Beautiful guitar. I’d look to see if there any markings in the inside just because that’s what I do.

 

[SFIV1967]

What would be best is if you could get a letter from Mr. English describing guitar's provenance.

Sorry to say, that is no longer possible...he passed away way too young in 2007 already.

A master guitar maker

In casual conversation with John English, you might learn that he had a ’98 Harley Soft Tail motorcycle he dearly loved or that he had a passion for gambling at the Pechanga Casino in Temecul…

www.ocregister.com

John English was not the head of the Custom Shop, he was Senior Master Builder:




The guitar itself looks like a Corona built JF30-12 to me, so maybe inside on the top or bracings or neck block there is some info (date, signatures,...). Excellent wood and color! Might have been a trial guitar or something due to the missing label and serial number on the headstock.

Ralf

 

[Heath]

I was just thinking this… any dates/markings on the neck block or braces?

 

[chazmo]

Ralf, Al, why do you guys think this is Corona-built?

 

[SFIV1967]

Ralf, Al, why do you guys think this is Corona-built?

I could be very wrong but pickguard shape and bridge (ebony?) look like Corona to me. Hans obviously knows all the little details to watch and compare between Westerly and Corona builds. Sure, a John English could have also owned a late Westerly model but it's more logical that this came from Corona where he was during the transition from Westery to Corona.

Ralf

 

[coreyman97]

Looks like the 2002 JF30-12 I grabbed last week on ebay. It's a beauty.

2002 Guild JF30-12 Sunburst - Beautiful Condition | eBay

The JF30-12 is Guild's best buy in Jumbo 12-string guitars. No factory pick up. Otherwise, beautiful finish condition due with to perfect hydration and always in case storage.

www.ebay.com

 

[SFIV1967]

Looks like the 2002 JF30-12 I grabbed last week on ebay.

That's an early Corona one. Interesting, that proofs my theory about pickguard shape and bridge wrong...

Ralf

 

[wileypickett]

Adorshki — your estimate that JF30 12-strings are selling in the 2k / $2500.00 range seems high compared to what I’m used to seeing.

 

[adorshki]

I was just thinking this… any dates/markings on the neck block or braces?

They stopped stamping neckblocks ca '99. Neither my '01 F65ce nor my '03 Corona D40 have one, however, other markings may have been made to ID the guitar.

 

[adorshki]

Adorshki — your estimate that JF30 12-strings are selling in the 2k / $2500.00 range seems high compared to what I’m used to seeing.

I defer to your active market watch observation. I barely pay attention and just did a quick google to arrive at my estimate.

 

[adorshki]

Ralf, Al, why do you guys think this is Corona-built?

What Ralf said, fact (?) that former owner was a Corona builder. We've also heard other stories of guitars that were simply given to employees at close, like a "prototype" 50th Anni. D55 that seller insisted was "the first one" although it also lacked an s/n. Sounds like a "first article" to me.

Also the case, for sure they used G&G very early in Corona for some reason, maybe renegotiating with TKL or simply needed a source for cases TKL couldn't/wouldn't supply? My D40 case has identical lining, too, but think I have seen it with very late Westerlys, so that's not a "sure tell". But if it's got a gold "Made To Be Played" badge on the neck, I'm 99% sure that's Corona.

But first thing I looked at it, it's just got "that look" somehow, like Ralf sad, although I've never noted any detail differences like pg shape that Ralf mentioned might exist.. it reminded me of @Cougar 's JF30-12, his is sunburst as well. Then when I saw backstory it strengthened my suspicion.

 

[SFIV1967]

Also the case, for sure they used G&G very early in Corona for some reason, maybe renegotiating with TKL or simply needed a source for cases TKL couldn't/wouldn't supply? My D40 case has identical lining, too, but think I have seen it with very late Westerlys, so that's not a "sure tell". But if it's got a gold "Made To Be Played" badge on the neck, I'm 99% sure that's Corona.

I see no Guild badge at all:



Just to compare, here is a later Corona built one with TKL case and the badge present:



But here is a very early Corona JF-30 (S/N 22) with such G&G case without Guild badge:



So this might be another pointer to an early Corona guitar for that ex John English one. And with his death in 2007 it would make sense that his daughter sold guitars.

Ralf

 

[fronobulax]

Welcome aboard John!
Assuming the "backstory" is correct (and I have no reason to suspect otherwise), I'd bet that's a Corona built JF30-12.

Lack of s/n stamp on headstock in particular makes me wonder if it might be a "first article", ie, a piece built 100% to production standards and using production techniques to ensure everything is as it should be before commencing production.

We know when Fender moved Guild to Corona all their builders needed to be trained in acoustic build techniques, and thus there were a lot of "test" and "practice builds" of different models that weren't intended for retail sale, thus no s/n would be needed..

And that might explain how the head of the Corona Custom Shop got hold of it.

But that's sheer conjecture on my part, we just know it's extremely rare to see guitars without s/n's from prior to '05 when they stopped stamping the headstocks.

The tough part is value: absent the s/n, there's no definitive proof this is a "real" JF30-12 or when it was built. That could be very relevant to a "collector" who might believe these will increase in value in future, and it makes an appraiser's task that much more difficult if for example some build periods are more desirable than others.

I'm not aware of that with JF30-12's, and they're not particularly "collectible" except maybe to guys like us, but the principle still applies.

And take into account the corollary, if there's no s/n, how do we know it's a guitar that was built to production standards and not possibly doomed to a short than normal life because it was simply a test bed for an untried build technique that didn't pan out?

I'd look for an appraiser who's got experience in musical instruments for a "real" appraisal.

Given JF30-12's in very good condition with case are probably $2k-2500.00 in the market right now, it's not like we're talking a potential loss of tens of thousands or anything, but the lack of s/n might put off a serious buyer. Having an appraisal at least may help 'em feel comfortable with it, that it's "for real", for example.

What would be best is if you could get a letter from Mr. English describing guitar's provenance. That might actually increase value, but without it, you got nothin' but a story, no snark intended.


It does look like a real nice piece.

The absence of a serial number and a label suggest to me that this instrument was not built as a regular production guitar with intention to be sold to the general public.

There is much speculation about such instruments - were they unmarked prototypes? proofs of concept? training exercises? unauthorized employee builds? favors for friends?

Even if we accept the John English connection as true, we still don't know who built it or why.

The pictures and similarity to production instruments suggests that it is somehow connected with Guild and not a well made, deliberate counterfeit.

A JF30-12 is probably the best price comparison. Might have to describe carefully and wait for someone who wants a good guitar and not a Guild with unassailable provenance. No matter what we think there is a buyer out there who will use the absence of a serial as a reason to get the price lowered.

 

[Cougar]

But first thing I looked at it, it's just got "that look" somehow, like Ralf sad, although I've never noted any detail differences like pg shape that Ralf mentioned might exist.. it reminded me of @Cougar 's JF30-12, his is sunburst as well.

Yeah, it looks a lot like mine, which is 2002, serial CTT000137. I'd know that burst anywhere. The lack of a stamped number on the back of the headstock really threw me. Plus mine has gold tuners, as does Corey's. The flame on the back is really choice on that one though.

I'm with Glenn as to potential price. Mine's in near mint condition and I bought it several years ago, but it was under $1,000. A fantastic deal, but there it is. Looks like Corey got a reasonable deal at $1,250 -- his looks in excellent shape. Reverb sold listings have JF30-12s ranging from $1,000 to $1,700. The couple that sold for more than that (up to $2,000) are outliers IMO. PLUS I have no idea what the lack of a label or stamped headstock will do for the sale price. It's pretty clearly a Corona-built JF30-12. As I've said before, I love mine just as much as my Oxnard-built F512 -- they normally go for over $3,000. (I didn't pay that for mine, but that's another story. )

 

[adorshki]

I see no Guild badge at all:



Just to compare, here is a later Corona built one with TKL case and the badge present:



Ralf

Right, I was just allowing for the possibility that the outside badge might be out of sight on the GG case. Also note the GG badge looks like same outline as later TKL outside badge?

Other thoughts: I do see a difference between Cougar's pg and John the OP's. (Or maybe not, on second look).

Knowing that some very early Corona builds used Westerly built necks that came ready to install, like JF30's with snakehead headstocks before they got "paddles", perhaps pickguards made their way to Corona for use as needed, along with things like the Westerly era Fishman 'barndoor' Prefix systems seen on 1st year Corona F47ce and even D50ce IIRC?? (1st Corona model year was '02)

I'm satisfied it's a "real Guild" btw, just unfortunately doesn't have a birth certificate, so to speak. But the little details are stacking up.