Nuts. I need a new nut! 74 D25CH

[lcjones]

Hey folks,

I'm quoting this from another thread ....

"Bill, take your Guild, and your Gibson to a good luthier, and tell him you want the Guild to play that easy, after that I think there would be no contest."

First, the original nut on my 74 D25 is plastic. It's a two piece nut. Well, it's come apart and it's been that way for a while. I change strings and re-seat it and its fine. I haven't had any playability or real tone problems at all. Although, I've worn the frets a good bit along with finger divots pretty much from 1 to 5th fret.

So this past Tuesday, one of the guys I work with comes boppin' in to work with his Grandfathers 1956 Gibson J45/ Tobacco Burst. My friend was bequeathed this guitar. He does not know how to play. Just learning. It's all original except for a strap button by the end pin. Complete with Black Diamond strings that have been on there since Hector was a pup. I told him to get some strings and I'd restring her for him. I did. Laid some Martin Marquis 11's on the old gal. Holy Mother Of All Tones! What a sweet, sweet, I mean making love sweet tone that jewel has. And action to simply die for! She's as straight as Mother Teresa! Truly a Holy Grail guitar. I did some quick checks and the mid-late 50's J45's are going for anywhere between $3500.00 and $6000.00. I say his would fetch $5 Grand easy.

And that's the action I want on my D25 ... low and silky freakin' smooth. Hence the nut talk.

I've had Ruby since she was new in 74. The nut on the D25 is worn for sure. And the saddle bridge is worn as well. So I'd like to re-nut, re-bridge and set her up as close as I can get to Granddad's 56 J45.

I am open to suggestion, advice and guidance for nut and bridge material. Whether I should get pre-made or go full steam and make my own nut. I'm also open to any pointers in how make adjustments to get some sweet action on old Ruby.

I'm yours. Mold me.

Chap

 

[Nigel Wickwire]

Ola!

You'll hear a lot of different opinions on nut/saddle materials. I'll cast my vote for bone.

As far as making your own nut, buying all the proper tools for the job is considerably more expensive, than just having a good luthier do it. Unless you've got 4 or 5 nut jobs on the horizon. Do it the old fashioned way, hire someone else to do it. Saddles on the other hand aren't too difficult to make and don't require much in the way of special tooling.

Edit: As always, a good place to start for DIY'er Luthiers is http://www.frets.com

~tb

 

[adorshki]

I'm yours. Mold me.
Chap

For sure get the fret job done first, you're gonna want to tailor the nut and saddle to the fret heights. A complete refret will include a neck planing if neccesary so you're starting as close to perfection as possible. Finding a good tech/luthier for this is critical.
Can you make your own nut, are you saying you've got the skills/tools/knowledge to do this?
Either way bone or ivory are on the top of the natural materials scale. Good bone is very scarce these days, it can have voids in it that ruin the piece when they're exposed during the shaping process. Same thing about saddles. Tusq is probably the best synthetic material followed by Micarta. I'm guessing you won't really need to lower the bridge, only the saddle height, if even that's actually called for. Assuming you decide to let the luthier replace the nut and saddle, have him set the action to the factory specs. Chances are good you're gonna be happy right out of the box. Even if you're not, don't worry, you can probably do the last "Nth" of fine tuning the action yourself, described below.
Let me say here that my D25 played like butter right out of the factory. After the FIRST refret something was never quite the same and it didn't come back until the SECOND refret. After the first job, there were some spots around the 7th-10th frets on the 5th & 6th strings that always got a little muted on hammer-ons. I always thought it was just me getting a little weak with age. Whatever the second guy did brought the original crispness back. Guitar's better than new now except for finish wear 'cause it's got the benefit of 1300 hours of playing in. That's how important the right guy is.
Even so, I realized I still wanted to lower the bass E just a few thousandths, I did that myself with finishing grade sandpaper on the saddle just a few rubs at a time, AND the corresponding nut slot. THAT's an often disregarded area that affects action too. I used the same paer rolled up to the diamter of the slot so I could deepen it without widening it. THere IS a limit to how narrow you can get using only sandpaper though.There's an interactional relationship between nutslot depth and saddle height which is covered well on Frank Ford's site "Frets.com". A lot of theory about shaping the saddle and the nutslots is covered in there too. Some real quick points: the saddle profile should match the fingerboard radius. There is a "ramp" on the back edge of the saddle for best balance of energy transfer vs string wear. There's also an angle in the depth of the nut slots for similar reasons. Another factor; I use lights (.012), you mentioned stringing up the Gibby with .011's. I'm in the school that says you can play lights harder and get more string travel and give up nothing in volume, but it DOES require the stock Guild setup height to eliminate buzz. That's why I suggest starting from there. (5-6/64ths on the bass E at 12th and 4-5/64ths on the treble). I'm at 6 and 4 as exactly as I can measure.
BRING THAT BABY BACK! I LOVE CHERRY!

 

[lcjones]

Thanks guys ...

adorshki,

Hmm. I'm thinking you hit the nail on the head. And here's why. I had a fret job about 10 years ago and quote the luthier unquote did this to my Guild. My thumb is on the 6th fret.
.
.

.
.
It's never been right since he worked on it. He chipped the cowboy peanuts out of my fret board and frankly, was a jerk about the whole thing. Anyway, what's done is done. I'm willing to buy the tools and learn but adorski, after reading your thoughts and notes, I do believe I do not have the skills to do the work. As much as I'd like to think I do.

My youngest brother has a friend who is a luthier, http://www.schneiderguitars.com/ up in Cincinnati. It's a long drive but my D25 will always be at my side.. I think you are right. I'll get it up North. Let a pro take care of it.

Thanks for your input and ka-nock on the noggin!


Chap

 

[adorshki]

adorshki,
Hmm. I'm thinking you hit the nail on the head. And here's why. I had a fret job about 10 years ago and quote the luthier unquote did this to my Guild. My thumb is on the 6th fret.

Chap

J----C----- he pried 'em out of there with a crowbar! So sorry it's too late for you to get any satisfaction but God'll get him for that! That's about how mine were by the time I finally got that second job too. I put it off for a LONG time. Good Luck!
Another little detail brought up recently is the availability of new gauges of fret wire. I went with what was described as the industry standard, 6140 I think it was? But it's what like 80% of all the acoustics are made with, including Guilds. As you might have figured out, I like factory stock. BTW saw the man cave...nice collection!

 

[Ross]

...Unless you've got 4 or 5 nut jobs on the horizon.

how did you know that I'll be attending a family reunion this weekend!

 

[valleyguy]

I've redone some saddles using Bob Colosi:

http://www.guitarsaddles.com/

If you go to his products section, here is what he says about nuts:

I can manufacture nuts out of any of the above mentioned materials. In nearly all cases, the effectiveness of the nut in changing the sonic qualities of your instrument is negligible, although there are certainly a number of circumstances in which you may want to install a new nut on your guitar. As I have pointed out in other areas of this website, it is my strong recommendation to have your nut installed by an experienced technician or luthier! Installation of a nut requires a certain degree of experience as well as specialized tools. Even if I construct an EXACT duplicate of the factory-installed nut on your guitar, there will still be a greater degree of “finish work” as compared with the saddle. Nuts come with the final shaping done, but oversized and with the string slots uncut.

Yeah, I'd leave it to someone with experience.

 

[cjd-player]

... I had a fret job about 10 years ago and quote the luthier unquote did this to my Guild. My thumb is on the 6th fret.

:shock: :shock:
That wasn't luthier .. that was a wood butcher or a luthier wana-be.
He should have at least filled the chipped-out areas with wood dust and glue to hide them.

 

[fused]

adorshki,
Hmm. I'm thinking you hit the nail on the head. And here's why. I had a fret job about 10 years ago and quote the luthier unquote did this to my Guild. My thumb is on the 6th fret.

Chap

J----C----- he pried 'em out of there with a crowbar!

Wow! OUCH! What did the poor guitar do?
I've had many refrets done and none... So sorry....
At least its loved by you. As if confirmed by the fret wear...
They don't get like that if someone doesn't love to play it.


A "GOOD" and "QUALIFIED" luthier would probably plane the neck some anyhow...which may reduce some of that crow bar effect.
I've been having all new refrets done by gluing the frets in. I've loved the results of that.

And maybe, just maybe, your tech will be able to fill some of those missing pieces of wood in the fretboard. I'll bet it will look great again. And you'll be good to go for another 10 years :wink:

 

[chazmo]

lc,

Your "Ruby" is certainly a gem. Seriously, any guitar used that extensively by an original owner no less has to be much-loved and part of the family!

So, yes, the trick here is to find a luthier/tech that can be trusted to bring Rudy back from a hatchet job in her past and, honestly, *plenty* of wear since then. At a minimum, you need fret job and a sanding/planing of the neck with the frets pulled out (of course). While you're at it, a new nut and saddle is probably necessary, especially if your nut is already cracked. BTW, I didn't quite understand if that's what you meant or simply that the original nut had come unglued... If the latter, that's pretty normal, lc, and is really a non-issue; some manufacturers don't even glue the nut down.

If the neck angle is OK, that may be all you need. I'm not 100% from those pictures, though, that the fingerboard is going to survive... A luthier can advise you there. If we're talking fingerboard replacement, well, that's starting to border on major work.

Anyway, keep us posted.

 

[valleyguy]

Here's an interesting post on the UMGF by Brian Kimsey on refret measurements and on a recent refret he did.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/107019/t/Partial-refrets-an-example.html

Lot of work in doing these.