Oops, they did it again

[kostask]

From the on-going story of my luthier buddy, comes chapter 2.

This is not my guitar, it is one that was brought in for a range of work. As part of everything that goes through his shop, this rather nice D30 was checked over in a general sense. Pictures below:





So this is a nice D30 from April of 1987 with a multiple piece maple neck. Very nice. Tuners look factory, and work well.

As per my F-50R, the guitar is going through its various checks.






Oh no, can't be happening again! Yes, the factory did it again, the saddle slot is off. Just like my F-50R, and as I said in that thread, it happens at all the factories, at least once in a while. To use Brittany Spears' line (not that I think that anybody who needs to use a harmonizer to sing is any great musical talent) "Oops, I (in this case, they, as in Westerly) did it again". Luthier believes that this is a factory, as in unaltered, bridge.

 

[adorshki]

"Huh" (seriously, LOL!)
Great post and pics sir.

 

[kostask]

Just noticed that the saddle is not only in the wrong place, it looks like the angle is off, because the high E is off by more than the low E. Luthier thinks he can save the bridge by filling in the current saddle slot with rosewood, and cutting in a new saddle slot. Hasn't completely ruled out a new bridge or moving the bridge back some, it will depend on what the string angles on the low E end up looking like. Good possibility of the string ramps/slots being filled in, too.

 

[LeFinPepere]

Is that a one-shot mistake , or does that imply there's a series of those?

 

[wileypickett]

The intonation was very likely correct when these guitars left the factory.

But over time a guitar's intonation can change. (True of any brand, not just Guilds.) This is mainly due to 30+ years of nearly 200 pounds of string pull exerted between the bridge and the nut.

This force can compress the top as the wood seasons; it can cause the bridge or neckblock to shift; it can cause the top to belly behind the bridge; sometimes accompanied by a slight collapse of the top around the soundhole. Sometimes it's a combination of some of the above.

Even a change in the gauge of the strings may affect intonation, as can a change in the angle of the neck; another consequence of force and time.

These changes can be VERY, VERY slight -- sometimes so slight as to be unnoticeable during regular play -- but detectable by very accurate tuners or devices like the Saddle-Matic.

In my experience it's rare that a guitar's intonation is still dead-on perfect after several decades of use. On most of my old guitars the harmonic at the 12th fret and the note at the 12th fret are off by a few cents (according to my tuner) which sometimes I can hear and sometimes not.

In the few instances when it was off enough that it was maddening to play the guitar, I filled the old saddle slot and routed a new one to correct the variance.

But regardless what the tuner says, if I can't hear the variance I leave the guitar alone.

 

[kostask]

I'm not implying that there is any batch issue, or group issue, or anything like that. Its just something that seems to crop up, randomly, on just about ALL factory guitars, regardless of brand. In the case of my guitar, a 1983 F-50R, and the current D30 that is pictured, there are 4 years roughly between them (as identified by the serial number of my guitar, and the serial number and date code of this D30. My luthier has seen it on just about every major brand of factory guitars, and even occasionally on hand built guitars. Some have stated that this doesn't happen on Guilds; it does. Its not an indicator of anything, except that even really good people, filled with good intent, screw up sometimes.

Note that both of these guitars were Westerly made, during times of relative good times (i.e. no factory moving around, other companies buying out Guild, or anything like that).

 

[kostask]

The intonation was very likely correct when these guitars left the factory.

But over time a guitar's intonation can change. (True of any brand, not just Guilds.) This is mainly due to 30+ years of nearly 200 pounds of string pull exerted between the bridge and the nut.

This force can compress the top as the wood seasons; it can cause the bridge or neckblock to shift; it can cause the top to belly behind the bridge; sometimes accompanied by a slight collapse of the top around the soundhole. Sometimes it's a combination of some of the above.

Even a change in the gauge of the strings may affect intonation, as can a change in the angle of the neck; another consequence of force and time.

These changes can be VERY, VERY slight -- sometimes so slight as to be unnoticeable during regular play -- but detectable by very accurate tuners or devices like the Saddle-Matic.

In my experience it's rare that a guitar's intonation is still dead-on perfect after several decades of use. On most of my old guitars the harmonic at the 12th fret and the note at the 12th fret are off by a few cents (according to my tuner) which sometimes I can hear and sometimes not.

In the few instances when it was off enough that it was maddening to play the guitar, I filled the old saddle slot and routed a new one to correct the variance.

But regardless what the tuner says, if I can't hear the variance I leave the guitar alone.

All true. But what forced the check with the saddlematic is that the guitar could not be tuned by ear, originally. the Saddlematic just proved it, and also indicates the amount that it changed by. I can see that the intonation may need to be adjusted for different gauge strings, or due to geometry changes due to age, but to have the saddle actually fall outside by the amount shown, either here or on by F-50R is excessive. My luthier is like you, he plays and listens first, and only pulls out the Saddlematic, and the Peterson when something is "off".

By the way, this guitar, like my F-50R was not in need of a neck reset, and did not have excessive bellying of the bridge. He also had a Guild come in a few months ago, for crack repairs, in which the intonation was spot on. So its not all of them, just some are out by some small amount.

 

[wileypickett]

The ones I've had to have new saddles routed for have almost invariably been 12-strings. And in no cases have I heard of a saddle having to be repositioned because it was too FAR from the nut. This (at least to me) supports the idea that the intonation has changed due to to the forces exerted by string pull toward the nut over time.

That your luthier has seen examples of this happening on many of the brands he encounters also says to me that it's something that just occurs over time, not that every guitar maker is occasionally sloppy with their intonation.

And certainly the means for determining proper intonation has grown more sophisticated and exacting over the past few decades -- there's less liklihood of error when finely calibrated machines are making the calculation.

Of course, we're talking the Wacky Bygone Years of Guild here, so anomalies are not only possible, but well-documented.

For instance, I bought a right-handed D64 (from our man Walrus) some years ago that had the saddle angled the wrong way, as if the guitar was originally meant to be a lefty. Talk about the intonation being off!

Walrus bought the guitar new and knew for certain that it had never been modified, and yep, everything else about it indicated it was built as a righty: the nut; the location of the pickguard, the fact that the bridge was thicker on the bass side; the bracing pattern, no fret marker dots on the treble side of the neck, etc.

How that guitar -- with the saddle compensated the wrong way, something you could see from 20 feet away -- ever passed the folks in Quality Control I can't fathom! (I have to say, this is something I find kind of charming about old Guilds. That this could never happen today is a little sad, no?)

It shoud be noted that the guitar was marked as a factory second. Walrus and I assumed this was due to a crack in the back of the guitar, which had been repaired by Guild before the guitar left the factory. But maybe both these issues were a factor in determining its "Z" status?

BTW, after having the saddle repositioned, that guitar is now one of the two or three best sounding Guilds I own. Every time I pick it up I genuflect to Walrus.

 

[SFIV1967]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing the pictures!
If the pointers really point to the front edge of the "to be routed" saddle slot, how does he want to have the strings coming out of the pins almost vertical? To me that would more look like moving the entire bridge and also new bridge pin holes.

Finding saddle location with the Saddlematic - StewMac

Finding saddle location with the Saddlematic

www.stewmac.com

Ralf

 

[wileypickett]

BTW, I have a Saddle-Matic and an Intonator, both from StewMac. The Intonator:

The Intonator - StewMac

Easy way to locate an acoustic bridge saddle for accurate intonation.

www.stewmac.com

I prefer the Intonator because it allows me to more easily calculate the correct saddle position while also taking into account the saddle height.

The Saddle-Matic tells you where to position the saddle, but unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem to take into account the height of the saddle, which is a key part of determining proper intonation. (The Intonator comes with three sets of concentric bushings which allow you to adjust the string height.)

The Intonator also allows you to work with the strings on your guitar so, in addition to making sure the string height is correct, you can also dial things in by comparing the harmonic at the 12th fret and the note at the 12th fret with a tuner, something you can't do with the Saddle-Matic.

Kostask: Maybe your luthier uses both -- the Saddle-Matic to get him right in the ballpark and the Intonator to find the sweet spot?

 

[walrus]

The ones I've had to have new saddles routed for have almost invariably been 12-strings. And in no cases have I heard of a saddle having to be repositioned because it was too FAR from the nut. This (at least to me) supports the idea that the intonation has changed due to to the forces exerted by string pull toward the nut over time.

That your luthier has seen examples of this happening on many of the brands he encounters also says to me that it's something that just occurs over time, not that every guitar maker is occasionally sloppy with their intonation.

And certainly the means for determining proper intonation has grown more sophisticated and exacting over the past few decades -- there's less liklihood of error when finely calibrated machines are making the calculation.

Of course, we're talking the Wacky Bygone Years of Guild here, so anomalies are not only possible, but well-documented.

For instance, I bought a right-handed D64 (from our man Walrus) some years ago that had the saddle angled the wrong way, as if the guitar was originally meant to be a lefty. Talk about the intonation being off!

Walrus bought the guitar new and knew for certain that it had never been modified, and yep, everything else about it indicated it was built as a righty: the nut; the location of the pickguard, the fact that the bridge was thicker on the bass side; the bracing pattern, no fret marker dots on the treble side of the neck, etc.

How that guitar -- with the saddle compensated the wrong way, something you could see from 20 feet away -- ever passed the folks in Quality Control I can't fathom! (I have to say, this is something I find kind of charming about old Guilds. That this could never happen today is a little sad, no?)

It shoud be noted that the guitar was marked as a factory second. Walrus and I assumed this was due to a crack in the back of the guitar, which had been repaired by Guild before the guitar left the factory. But maybe both these issues were a factor in determining its "Z" status?

BTW, after having the saddle repositioned, that guitar is now one of the two or three best sounding Guilds I own. Every time I pick it up I genuflect to Walrus.

The saddle didn't show up on my radar when I considered the intonation being off, who would think it was not compensated correctly? Doh!

BTW, the saddle was certainly seen by other people who should also know better - I had it worked on a few times over 30+ years.

It was a very informative learning experience to have Mr. Pickett notice that and talk about it with me (while we sat on the floor of a Guitar Center lobby to do the deal!).

walrus

 

[Stuball48]

Easy to get saddle turned around when changing strings and cleaning. Always mark one end of saddle with pencil mark.
Just a thought

 

[davismanLV]

Wouldn't it be awful to find a manufacturing glitch that produced a bunch of inaccurate Saddlematics?? Think of the repercussions!!

 

[gjmalcyon]

My Tacoma F-47 apparently came from the factory with the saddle in the wrong position. Previous owner Mike Morris (mikemo6string) had his luthier fill the old slot, finish it, and cut a new slot. The fix is nearly invisible even after you start looking for it.

 

[wileypickett]

Easy to get saddle turned around when changing strings and cleaning. Always mark one end of saddle with pencil mark.
Just a thought

The saddle itself was not turned around -- the saddle SLOT had been cut for a lefty guitar, so that the bass side of the saddle was closer to the front of the bridge than the treble side, the reverse of the way it should be for a righty guitar.

 

[kostask]

Wouldn't it be awful to find a manufacturing glitch that produced a bunch of inaccurate Saddlematics?? Think of the repercussions!!

The Saddlematic is adjustable for lenght, to accomodate different scale lengths. It is supposed to adjusted by first setting the scale lenght from the nut to the 12th fret, then from the 12th fret to the saddle slot. Stew Mac can build "bad" Saddlematics I am sure, but since the scale length is adjustable, they cannot build Saddlematics of the wrong scale length.

 

[kostask]

Easy to get saddle turned around when changing strings and cleaning. Always mark one end of saddle with pencil mark.
Just a thought

It isn't that the saddle would be turned around, as that is not what is being measured. The saddle slot position is what is being measured. Turning the saddle around (which is quite easy to see, btw) won't make any difference to the Saddlematic.

 

[kostask]

BTW, I have a Saddle-Matic and an Intonator, both from StewMac. The Intonator:

The Intonator - StewMac

Easy way to locate an acoustic bridge saddle for accurate intonation.

www.stewmac.com

I prefer the Intonator because it allows me to more easily calculate the correct saddle position while also taking into account the saddle height.

The Saddle-Matic tells you where to position the saddle, but unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem to take into account the height of the saddle, which is a key part of determining proper intonation. (The Intonator comes with three sets of concentric bushings which allow you to adjust the string height.)

The Intonator also allows you to work with the strings on your guitar so, in addition to making sure the string height is correct, you can also dial things in by comparing the harmonic at the 12th fret and the note at the 12th fret with a tuner, something you can't do with the Saddle-Matic.

Kostask: Maybe your luthier uses both -- the Saddle-Matic to get him right in the ballpark and the Intonator to find the sweet spot?

He does use both. It is as you say, the Saddlematic is a first cut measuring tool, not the final determinant of the saddle slot position.

I don't think that bridge height would be as big a factor in the intonation of a guitar, at least to the extent that couldn't be compensated by properly compensating at the saddle itself after the saddle slot is in the correct position (my opinion, not the luthier's). He uses the tools to find the saddle slot position, and then sets the final compensation using a Peterson LCD strobe tuner.

 

[Rayk]

Oooo where do I get a gauge like that ?
I’ve seen bridges that look off center or just not what I think is right but honestly I could tell as they mostly sound right some are bit finicky but can’t remember which one or ones .
I could use that gauge thingy . Lol

 

[Rambozo96]

Wouldn't it be awful to find a manufacturing glitch that produced a bunch of inaccurate Saddlematics?? Think of the repercussions!!

That reminds me of the story of Martin using a very worn out jig used to locate the position for the saddle that caused many 70’s Martin’s intonation to be way off. I do know my D-25 appears to have had its original saddle slot filled with a new channel routed out to correct it.