Pagey"s Big Ears

[houseisland]

This is probably old for some of you. But it is interesting.

Zepplin plagiarizing or not?

Quoting?

Page had big ears, listening to everything. His love for blues and folk music comes through in so much of what he does. There were credible rumors that if it were not for Yardbirds contractual obligations to perform a number of concerts in Europe, Led Zepplin would not have existed, being formed as the New Yardbirds only to fulfill these obligations; Page may have launched out with something much more like the British folk-fusion group Pentangle, of which Bert Jansch, quoted in the first link below, was a member. Led Zepplin rides the two horses of blues and folk throughout much of their life as a group.

Ripping things off is so easy if you love them. I have a particularly talented singer/song writer nephew who, while he does write many great original tunes, keeps re-writing Green Day and Nirvana tunes unconsciously. If it is pointed out to him, he can see it, but he didn't set out to rip them off and he doesn't see it in the process of writing. He works with words, looking for something to fit under them and Green Day and Nirvana sort of jump in to help out. ;^)

But I am not so sure that everything documented here below is quite so innocent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zThdTAWQFAQ

Note that comments are disabled for the two Youtube postings. Let's keep any discussion civil.

 

[jcwu]

I've written and recorded songs that years later, on listening back, can tell you what music "phase" I was going through. There was one song that was kind of the peak of my song-writing phase, that I can now tell is almost a rip-off of a part of a Lenny Kravitz song. But did I consciously set out to copy Lenny? No. I just happened to have listened to him quite a bit during that part of my life.

I don't know - you take a listen and decide for yourself if you can hear the similarity? I hear it most prominently at the chord progression in the chorus.

Lenny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6k57bME0oE at 1:24
Me: https://soundcloud.com/blueberry-brew/winter-wonderland at 0:33

You are what you feed yourself. It's hard as a musician not to channel what you're constantly listening to.

 

[houseisland]

It's hard as a musician not to channel what you're constantly listening to.

Hmmm..... maybe not hard, maybe impossible.... layful:

There are things from my juvenile infatuation with John McLaughlin (the only player I ever wanted to sound like but never had the talent and discipline/work-ethic ever to come close) that keep popping up in my playing even though I do not listen to him much anymore and no longer want to sound like him.

 

[walrus]

We've shown those links before and discussed this idea of "plagarism", but I can't find the post. Anyway, the general consensus was all music is derivative, no matter who we are talking about. If you look at the credits for most of those Zeppelin songs in the links, you will see that the original artists are now given credit, and have been for a while.

The "Stairway" is "Taurus" (by Spirit) accusation is laughable, but some of the old blues tunes they recorded are pretty close to the originals. And in "Black Mountain Side" Page is honoring his hero Bert Jansch.

As jcwu said above, "you are what you feed yourself"... musically, anyway.

walrus

 

[houseisland]

We've shown those links before and discussed this idea of "plagarism", but I can't find the post.

Me, noob, despite the undeserved "Senior Member" designation I seem mysteriously to have acquired. But I guess what is old to some is new to others. Last night, a friend sent me a link to an ABC comparison of the original Dazed and Confused, the Yardbirds' Dazed and Confused, and Zepplin's Dazed and Confused. I found the links above in the side bar. I had not seen them before, although I was aware of much what was contained in them. The Moby Grape thing, though, had entirely escaped my notice.

Anyway, the general consensus was all music is derivative, no matter who we are talking about. The "Stairway" is "Taurus" (by Spirit) is laughable, but some of the old blues tunes they recorded are pretty close to the originals. And in "Black Mountain Side" Page is honoring his hero Bert Jansch. As jcwu said above, "you are what you feed yourself"... musically, anyway.

Yes. We do not know the influences for some of the artists who influenced Zepplin. It is unlikely that Willie Dixon sprang from the ground fully formed, but we have no way of doing a critical analysis of his music, at least not as far as I know. As for Jansch, one of my heroes, well ... we do have Davey Graham, and if we take the Davey out of Burt, Burt's stature seems a little shorter, but if we look at it in a different way Burt is also putting a new twist on the borrowed stuff and he looks taller again. And if we wander into Jazz, we will find that Jazz musicians are some of the biggest rip off artists in the world - taking the changes of an existing tune verbatim - dropping a new melody over the changes as a head - then claiming authorship. Page is my favorite from the pantheon of British 60s guitar gods. What I like is his eccentricity. If there is a crime here on Page's part, I forgive him. The music is often similar to its sources, but it is never entirely the same.

 

[walrus]

I've said this before, but I really enjoyed Page's book "Light and Shade". Lots of insight into his influences and playing. You might enjoy it, house. Page is one of my favorites, too.

walrus

 

[jcwu]

Last night, a friend sent me a link to an ABC comparison of the original Dazed and Confused, the Yardbirds' Dazed and Confused, and Zepplin's Dazed and Confused.

Would you mind posting that link?

 

[houseisland]

Would you mind posting that link?

Not at all.

Here you go - 3 links actually


A - Jake Holmes: http://youtu.be/pTsvs-pAGDc

B - Yardbirds: http://youtu.be/3ffBRhtWjEQ

C - Led Zepplin: http://youtu.be/IC6SwzXvyzw

You can see the progression of Page transforming the original into something very much his own (and yet of course not at the same time). Good things can always be improved on; otherwise there is no point in stealing them.

 

[houseisland]

I don't know - you take a listen and decide for yourself if you can hear the similarity? I hear it most prominently at the chord progression in the chorus.

Lenny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6k57bME0oE at 1:24
Me: https://soundcloud.com/blueberry-brew/winter-wonderland at 0:33

"Decide for yourself if you can hear the similarity?" Not unless you pointed it out, which you did.

Me: https://soundcloud.com/blueberry-brew/winter-wonderland at 0:33

Nice. Rude of me not to have said so earlier. Sorry.

 

[walrus]

Yes, jc, great recording! If you had not mentioned when to listen, I would not have noticed it. One riff that is "similar" is much less "obvious" than what Page is doing on some of these songs!

walrus

 

[jcwu]

Thanks, guys!

Yes, listening to Holmes' Dazed, I can definitely see why people say Page ripped him off. That's way too close for comfort for me. Had I been Page, I would have given credit, as least for inspiration.

In my case, yes, it was just one chord progression, but I see it more as a subconscious leakage from my storage banks into my artistic output. I just didn't recognize it til much later, when I stumbled across my Lenny collection, heard Black Velveteen, and thought, "Whoa, that sounds a LOT like what I did on Winter Wonderland...."

 

[Zelja]

Some of that stuff Page did was blatant. He's been a naughty, naughty boy! Then I listen to things like The Rain Song & wonder why he ever felt the need to , ahem, borrow so heavily from others.

 

[houseisland]

Some of that stuff Page did was blatant. He's been a naughty, naughty boy! Then I listen to things like The Rain Song & wonder why he ever felt the need to , ahem, borrow so heavily from others.

It seems narcissistic to quote myself but what the ...

Good things can always be improved on; otherwise there is no point in stealing them.

 

[jcwu]

It seems narcissistic to quote myself but what the ...

Maybe you can take a page from Page's book and quote someone else but just change a few words....

 

[Zelja]

It seems narcissistic to quote myself but what the ...
Good things can always be improved on; otherwise there is no point in stealing them.

Yeah OK, but do an "interpretation" and credit the original writer. I don't think it's very cool in having to be forced via litigation to acknowledge the original artist you have "stolen" from. Different story to be "influenced" by someone as we all are & different to outright take a whole chunk of a song & claim it as your own...

 

[houseisland]

Yeah OK, but do an "interpretation" and credit the original writer. I don't think it's very cool in having to be forced via litigation to acknowledge the original artist you have "stolen" from. Different story to be "influenced" by someone as we all are & different to outright take a whole chunk of a song & claim it as your own...

Yes. I did not include any emoticons to indicate irony or sarcasm, but I did use the word steal as opposed to borrow or interpret.

The past was a different time; people did things differently then (well, maybe not so differently from now, actually). Lots of artists had to sign over their work (including giving writing credit away) to agents/producers/company owners to get in the door of a studio, to get radio play, to get gigs. Some artists, particularly but not exclusively female artists, had to put out for those with power. And artists themselves fell in with these practices - "If you want to be a Raylette, your have to let Ray." Corruption? Graft? Payola? There is the story about Pink Floyd with the Animals album refusing to stoke formatted radio with graft money - the tour is going well - the record is not selling - no radio play - give in and pay up and, voilà, heavy FM rotation. Ehtics? We don't need no stinking ethics! Control of capital in the form of cash, studios, and media allowed for rampant exploitation. Page, the extremely talented studio brat, who, wonder of wonders, could actually sight read charts, was deeply immersed in this world from quite a young age. A creature of his time and place. All this doesn't exonerate him, but .... I love him. I forgive him.

Hmmm. Things have changed with the advent of good quality home recording gear and independent methods of distribution - artists can be a lot more independent, maybe. But media? Hmmm.... Why do I hear exactly the same songs on all mainstream FM radio stations? There are great, new, young artists - John Butler from down under for example - who do not get played on mainstream radio here, ever. Why does the same Steppenwolf song I have not heard or thought about in ages suddenly reappear in heavy rotation on every station on the dial, on both sides of the Canada/US border here, at exactly the same time? Curious.

 

[adorshki]

Why does the same Steppenwolf song I have not heard or thought about in ages suddenly reappear in heavy rotation on every station on the dial, on both sides of the Canada/US border here, at exactly the same time? Curious.

I've seen correlations with a birthday, a death, an anniversary of a release date, or a pending tour, when it comes to that phenomena, which we touched on briefly in a "CLASSIC ROCK" thread.
Any excuse to toss a little change into the rotation periodically.
I like Page too, as an aside, I always thought it was funny that he ripped himself off, see "White Summer" on Little Games for what I always thought was the original version of "Black Mountain Side".
There's also one called "Only the Black Rose" that foreshadows the acoustic Zepp sound.
My understanding was that he was already assembling the musicians for what would become Zeppelin even though he had to fill those tour date obligations. He had actually acquired the rights to the Yardbirds' name but was already planning the Zeppelin direction, even bowing his guitar in a very early live version of "Dazed" with the Yardbirds.
Or look at the tune "Little Games" itself featuring cellos and and a bowed solo.
Then don't forget that Page already knew JP Jones from as far back as the late '66 session for "Beck's Bolero".
BTW: Senior Member= 100+ posts.
:wink:

 

[walrus]

What adorshki said. BTW, to "fill the tour date obligations", what became Led Zeppelin was billed as "The New Yardbirds".

Then they renamed themselves "Led Zeppelin", supposedly coined by Keith Moon in reference to the musicians that had performed on "Beck's Bolero". Moon had quipped that a Jeff Beck/JP Jones/Nicky Hopkins/Keith Moon/Jimmy Page lineup would go down "like a lead zeppelin." The spelling of "lead" was changed to make sure it was pronounced correctly!

walrus

 

[houseisland]

I do have some replies to offer The Walrus and adorshki , regarding the Pentangle thing - there was an interview eons ago in a British music mag with someone close to Page .... - but it doesn't really matter what Page might have been thinking in this direction since he didn't do it. What he did do was Zepplin. But in a sense he did do the folky thing, too. White Summer etc was as much a preparation for a folk-fusion group as the Yardbirds' Dazed and Cofused was for Zepplin. But the dead horse here is being flogged into Steak Tartare, isn't it?

And by the way, I do like this number that Corrine Bailey Ray has "written." http://youtu.be/DznSalRqVBU Sounds familiar. Have I heard it somewhere before?

And since there is no particular reason this thread should stay on topic more than anyother thread here, I might offer the observation that it is some times foolish to pass judgement on people's abilities based on the face they choose or are forced to present to the world. Pop diva, yes. Lacking depth, no. http://youtu.be/Xukwe6bSYVo

And Roy Clark smacked me up the side of the head once. He had existed in my peripheral vision as some hayseed in overalls with a wheat straw sticking out the side of his mouth always doing cornball kind of stuff. Then at friend's house there was this obscure album (sorry, don't remember title) with a very different Roy Clark playing with a truly wicked set of Jazz/Blues chops handled with all the savage urgency of a switchblade in the hands of a tough and desperate junkie. Holy F! Even someone like Joe Pass might be lined up at the Greyhound terminal in fear, shame and embarrassment, wanting a ticket for the next bus to anywhere, if he heard this Dude was coming to town. Smack! The side of my head still hurts. Sorry Roy. Got my mind right, Boss!

 

[adorshki]

But in a sense he did do the folky thing, too. White Summer etc was as much a preparation for a folk-fusion group as the Yardbirds' Dazed and Cofused was for Zepplin. But the dead horse here is being flogged into Steak Tartare, isn't it?

I like Tartare Equus. :biggrin-new:
I have no doubt as to the validity of the assertion. Actually have seen Jansch mentioned here many times but only ever heard the man himself once in an obscure early '60's English film in which he played a tune in a beatnik coffee house as background. Finger-picking gypsy-sounding stuff. It was so good I had to do some digging for a while to find out who it was, but I get why he's so highly respected.
Speaking of folk fusion, let's also not forget that Sandy Denny of Fairport Convention guests on L.Z. IV, to put further proof to your premise. Before we even go into the acoustic stuff on "III".... :wink: