Questions about Novaks and Hipshots

[lungimsam]

I have never heard of any setup specs for this bridge. “Just do whatever you have to to make it work” seems to be the idea. The good thing is it is flexible enough to tweak around til you get it how you like it. Sounds like you got it to work right!!
Congrats on the build!!
Solders look good to me!!
That’s a mighty satisfyin’ feelin’ when you pull everything into place with that airline tubing and it all fits!!! You did great!
Let us know how you like it!!!

 

[thornev]

I jammed on my bass. Frankly I'm disappointed that with all the new components, the variations in sound are not all that different. I put two BASS TEN ToneStylers in to replace tone pots and a push-pull to replace the neck volume which controls the BS-DS pickup. I want to spend more time playing it. I do like the BS-DS pickup. The bass tones are rich. I do like the Pyramid Gold strings... a LOT !

It's late so I didn't want to play too loud. I'll post more tomorrow. G'night, All.

 

[fronobulax]

Something very wrong. When I put the bridge back on, the strings are WAY off settling over the pickup screws. I tried messing with the rear screws, but what are the specs for setting up a Starfire II bridge? I know about the saddle height adjustments, but those rear screw heights seem to be crucial to be setup correctly. I would imagine there is a height spec.

I may have missed context but if you are saying the strings no longer go over the pickup pole pieces they way you expect then that is a feature of this bridge design. It is likely to occur every time all of the strings are take off. The saddles are free to slide from "side to side" and the fix is to position the saddles as you wish and make sure they stay there as you restringing the bass and increase tension.

I get concerned because there are no screws involved in this adjustment on an unmodified bridge so I may not be understanding you.

In general I have never seen setup specs for any Guild bass with this bridge. I suppose someone may have asked the company how the factory sets them up but I can't recall that was ever shared. You just adjust the right things until the bass plays as you like or you get frustrated enough to get a new bridge of a different design.

The two screws that are closest to the bottom of the bridge anchor the bridge to the base and they are only used to hold the bridge on to the bass. Slightly towards the neck are two posts. Depending on the age of the bridge they may be adjusted with screws or a hex wrench. They raise and lower the bridge which is how you raise and lower the action. Since the two posts are independent you can raise one more than the other to tilt the bridge. Some people do that if their E is really fat and their G is really thin. The saddles have a fixed height and a string notch but they can be slid from side to side to adjust how the strings go over the pole pieces. If someone is willing to modify saddles, the saddles can be crafted to raise or lower individual string action and modify string spacing. But modifying the saddles goes beyond the setup envisioned by the bridge designers. The saddles sit on a "paddle" and the undiscussed screws are used to move the paddle and hold it in place. On a stock bridge they do nothing to hold the saddle on the paddle. That is done by friction and string tension. The paddle screws are loosened, the paddles moved and then the paddle screws are tightened in order to adjust the intonation so that the fretted note at the 12th fret and the harmonic at the 12th fret are the same.

For me the biggest frustration comes from intonation. Because the saddles are not fixed on the paddles moving the paddle/saddle can allow the saddle to slide thus changing string spacing or the intonation of an adjacent string.

Apologies if you already know this but I wasn't sure from what you wrote.

 

[thornev]

Thanks, frono. I was concerned when I first reattached the bridge because it looked like one of the rear screws was coming loose and had created a larger hole by wiggling from undue pressure. But the action I took, loosening the strings and resetting the bridge, fixed that problem so everything is back to normal. I was curious as to how those rear 2 screws are supposed to be set i.e. how deep into the bass' top. I thought it was important to level the bridge and get the screws into the top as much as possible, but I realized that's not at all important and creates more problems. The bridge has to be set so that the action screws can do their job. So I guess it's just hit and miss with those rear screws. Trial and error. And finally one finds the right balance so that they hold the bridge in place and the action screws can do their job. Those rear screws should NOT be screwed in too tightly is what I learned.

 

[fronobulax]

Thanks, frono. I was concerned when I first reattached the bridge because it looked like one of the rear screws was coming loose and had created a larger hole by wiggling from undue pressure. But the action I took, loosening the strings and resetting the bridge, fixed that problem so everything is back to normal. I was curious as to how those rear 2 screws are supposed to be set i.e. how deep into the bass' top. I thought it was important to level the bridge and get the screws into the top as much as possible, but I realized that's not at all important and creates more problems. The bridge has to be set so that the action screws can do their job. So I guess it's just hit and miss with those rear screws. Trial and error. And finally one finds the right balance so that they hold the bridge in place and the action screws can do their job. Those rear screws should NOT be screwed in too tightly is what I learned.

Got it. Much less confusion no my part now.

The rear screws on vintage basses had a felt or rubber grommet between the bridge and the base plate and the idea was that the screws were tight enough to allow a little wiggle which the grommet allowed. If I had remembered that before I read your post....

 

[thornev]

On the new Starfire II bass's there are 2 rubber cubes between the bridge and top. I have no idea what their purpose is other than to prevent the bridge's scratching the top if screwed down too much. But those screws wouldn't go down that far and when I did have them down very close to the top, the front of the bridge was raised up way too high such that I couldn't use the saddle height adjustment screws. That's when I knew I shouldn't screw the back of the bridge that low.

 

[thornev]

Something else I just learned... If the bridge screws are not screwed in so they are straight vertically, the saddles will be too far forward and hence the intonation will be more sharp than it should be. In other words if the screws are leaning toward the pickups, the saddles are in a position to make the intonation sharp. And can be so sharp that there is not enough room for the D and G string saddles to be moved back because the bridge height adjustment screws get in the way. Cause: I didn't screw down the screws far enough so the string downward pressure caused them to lean toward the pickups.

And so, contrary to my previous post about bridge issues, now I believe the large screws must be screwed in as tightly as possible in order to prevent the screws from being able to lean toward the pickups.

 

[lungimsam]

So how did the bridge work out all the way tightened down?

 

[thornev]

OK here it is, what I think about my modded bass. I love it. With the ToneStylers I can make it sound like a Ric or a Precision. There are plenty of different tones from which to choose, even though some of them sound very similar. The BASE TEN tone pots have 10 positions each and then I have the BS-DS with the coil tap. Frankly I don't find the coil tap all that useful. It seems to me it's the same tonally as the full coil but noticeably lower in volume. OK, maybe a few less high frequencies, but then I don't consider that a major or desirable difference. Maybe if I were to crank my amp, I would feel better about it. But I generally don't like to play ear-splitting loud.

Sam - The bridge all the way down worked out great. I can intonate now and get the low action I like. I must have been too tired when I had the bridge locked down last night.

 

[lungimsam]

Glad it all worked out!!
Yes, the Tonestyler with 10 detents some may sound very close together.
I have had a 16 detent tstyler on my starfire for a couple years now and the 16 sounds are even closer together. But they are all a little different. I cannot get mine to sound like a Ric or a Precision though.
PS- I have a Gibson bass that came stock with a tap on the Hbucker. I like the full hbucker better than the tap, too. Tap sounds weaker and single coil noise comes thru then. Full Hbucker sounds more full bodied. But I guess that is what taps do, gives you half, or whatever part of the windings.
PPS- since you are a "Natural" finish Starfire owner, I must continue my quest to settle what it really looks like in person (cuz online pics shoe some red, some brown) and ask for your vote as to:
Do your pictures reflect the true color yours is, or does it look more brown like in this pic from Guild's website below:

 

[fronobulax]

Frankly I don't find the coil tap all that useful. It seems to me it's the same tonally as the full coil but noticeably lower in volume. OK, maybe a few less high frequencies, but then I don't consider that a major or desirable difference. Maybe if I were to crank my amp, I would feel better about it. But I generally don't like to play ear-splitting loud.

My tapped BSDS is in a solid body. Most of my playing lately has been through headphones. There is a definite and noticeable difference for me. I hear it in the low frequencies - one position kind of reminds me of the deep/hard switch on the JS II when you engage the switch and then allow some treble through. I could use "thin" for the mids and upper frequencies in one position but I like that for when there is a lot of clutter in the mix. I find the volume control makes a difference as well. As I back of the volume I sometimes prefer the other tap. I'll see if my impressions are the same when using an amp.

 

[lungimsam]

It is interesting that basses sound different thru monitor speaker/vs. amp/ vs. headphones.

I know one thing for me is I never paid so much attention to how my guitars sounded as i do for my basses. The guitars always all sounded great outta the box to my ears. No need to mod anything. But with basses seems like I am very sensitive to how they sound for some reason.

 

[fronobulax]

It is interesting that basses sound different thru monitor speaker/vs. amp/ vs. headphones.

I know one thing for me is I never paid so much attention to how my guitars sounded as i do for my basses. The guitars always all sounded great outta the box to my ears. No need to mod anything. But with basses seems like I am very sensitive to how they sound for some reason.

Well the acoustic wavelength of a low E is about 27 feet so there are a lot of opportunities for reflection. A low A is about 20 feet so if your cabinet is about 5 feet from a reflecting wall you're going to have a lot of interference. There are definitely bass frequencies that are felt as much as heard and all of this is a factor before you decide whether you are setting things up for yourself or for the audience. So there are more variables and fewer under your control.

The room almost certainly effects a bass more than a guitar. The other situations could be signal chain or design choices. Flat frequency response across the entire spectrum is the goal of audiophiles but equipment aimed at mere mortals often makes compromises and those choices can effect guitar and bass differently. When I played bass through a genuine guitar amp the only control that made a difference was the volume. The tone controls all expected higher frequencies than my bass produced.

 

[thornev]

Sam - Picture #3 in post 101 is definitely a LOT more red than my bass which is more brown in real life. But then the light in which one takes a picture has a lot to do with how accurately the colors are represented. The temperature of the artificial light I mean. Incandescent light makes colors look more red. Fluorescent light makes colors look more green. And of course sunshine makes colors look more accurate as in rainbow colors. And of course there is the human eye. How do I know that the red at which you're looking is the same red as I see it?

 

[lungimsam]

So did you replace the bridge yet?

 

[edwin]

Re drilling into guitars... agreed. Maybe on a project guitar that's a mess already, but not on vintage and not on brand spanking sparkling new (which is the case with my Starfire II bass).

So it looks like DPDT it is. Everything seems to work. I just have to get rid of the buzz (grounding issue). I also want to test the ToneStylers which so far seem to work fine.

I love drilling into vintage basses! Especially mahogany. The smell is utterly unique and it smells like victory!

 

[edwin]

Ya know, I keep forgetting in my maniacal search why I want a replacement bridge. I want it for sustain and better resonance which means it must be in contact with the body. And that brings me back to the curved top issue and how these flat bridges won't work without some creative support work. Sigh.

The best way to get what you are talking about is an Alembic style bridge. I went down that path almost 30 years ago before I finally decided to do what needed to be done. Consequently, there are a bunch of holes in the bridge area of my bass.

 

[lungimsam]

Just to add that someone did put the Hipshot on his Starfire successfully. 8th post down has a pic. But he did not elaborate about filling the gaps:

Guild starfire bridge help

is there a replacement? This thing isn't doing it for me but the sound!! Ah I love it!! I wonder if the hipshot supertone would work? I'm well aware...

www.talkbass.com

 

[thornev]

Thanks, lung. I've been happily using the SF II on all my recent recordings. Love that deep bass on the low notes. I even had to tune down to D for "Angry Eyes" and it sounded superb.

 

[lungimsam]

Can you post a pic sometime of what the color looks like?
Glad the bass worked out for you and thanks for sharing your process!
Hipshot stuff:
Apparently, Hipshot is working with Casady bass owners and sending them or making them some sorta shims and felt washers to fill the gaps.
I guess in order to make a made-to-fit one for Guild they would have to retool for a contoured bottom, so I guess that ain;t gonna happen and best can be done is shimming. But that sounds like not something worth doing. I think the standard Guild bridge is good enough despite its drawbacks and wonkiness to use/adjust.
I will say, having tried brass saddles, the brass saddles thinned out the tone and I think the Starfire sounds better with wood saddles.
Not sure if the Hipshot metal saddles would change the tone in the same way as brass or not.