Replace DTAR Lock ‘n load on Guild F-412

[ut0bct]

My fellow Guild lovers,

First of all, a big thank you to the community for the wealth of information that is available on this forum and the passion that breathes through every thread and every post.

I’m starting this thread on a topic that I know has been discussed in the past under different angles.

I bought a used F-412 from the early 2010s. I knew when I bought it that the pick-up was out of order, which was not that big of an issue to me at the time…. but as I started moving from my couch to the stage, that is becoming a bit of a problem.

The original pickup mounted on this F-412 is the DTAR wavelength lock ‘n load (https://guildguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/D_TAR_loadnlock.pdf) and the reason it’s out of order is because the previous owner forgot to remove the batteries, which started leaking and are now stuck inside.

The pickup is out of production and I cannot find it for sale on the web (neither new nor used…)… I believe I’m not the only one desperately looking for that piece of equipment! I called Guild who are supposed to get back to me with potential solutions (eventually) but I doubt they carry inventories of this pickup or spare parts.

So my questions are:
1. Did anybody replace this DTAR pickup on a Guild with another model?
2. Given the quality of the instrument, I would go for a LR Baggs Anthem: is that an easy replacement to make?
3. What are the better options in terms of fit into the hole? The DTAR required a pretty big cavity and I suspect it’s going to be difficult to fit a smaller pickup securely…

Many thanks for your advice…!

Marco

 

[chazmo]

You could try this... https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index...h-my-d-tar-pickup-system.168161/#post-1486159

Have you been able to get the endpin out of the hole?

And, yes, you can replace the Load'n'Lock with other battery enclosures or replace the whole system. Personally, the DTAR system with built-in microphonics (now called Duncan Wavelength Duo: https://www.seymourduncan.com/single-product/wavelength-duo ) is a great replacement.

 

[ut0bct]

Thank you Chazmo for your reply.

Yes I can remove the endpin from the pickup and I can remove the entire pickup.

The Seymour Duncan alternative you suggest looks like it is a descendent of the DTAR. It is reminiscent of the LR Baggs Anthem I mentioned, not only because it combines a piezo and a condenser mike, but also for the diameter of the endpin… which looks smaller than the DTAR…

I’ll investigate the magnet idea, thanks.

Otherwise the picture on that thread you mentioned gave me another idea: open the end pin, drill a hole in the battery, insert a screw into the hole and… pull the screw to get battery out? However that is going to be kinda messy and frankly drilling a battery does not sound like a great idea…

Thanks everyone for any other suggestions…!

 

[JohnW63]

If you do replace it, I wouldn't mind getting it from you and attempt to repair it.

 

[ut0bct]

Man… aren’t these gizmos hard to find… ;-)

 

[chazmo]

Thank you Chazmo for your reply.

Yes I can remove the endpin from the pickup and I can remove the entire pickup.

The Seymour Duncan alternative you suggest looks like it is a descendent of the DTAR. It is reminiscent of the LR Baggs Anthem I mentioned, not only because it combines a piezo and a condenser mike, but also for the diameter of the endpin… which looks smaller than the DTAR…

I’ll investigate the magnet idea, thanks.

Otherwise the picture on that thread you mentioned gave me another idea: open the end pin, drill a hole in the battery, insert a screw into the hole and… pull the screw to get battery out? However that is going to be kinda messy and frankly drilling a battery does not sound like a great idea…

Thanks everyone for any other suggestions…!

Yeah, drilling into the battery may be your only option.

 

[fronobulax]

The Seymour Duncan alternative you suggest looks like it is a descendent of the DTAR.

It is.

 

[Cougar]

The Seymour Duncan alternative you suggest looks like it is a descendent of the DTAR....

Yeah, it used to be called DTAR Dual Source. I forget the history of the name change. But welcome to the boards! F412 -- Can't make a better choice than that! Smartly done!

 

[kostask]

To clarify, the Seymour Duncan Wavelength Duo and the DTAR Lock and Load are pretty much the same system, save for the battery holder. The "D" in DTAR stands for Duncan (as in Seymour Duncan, DTAR stands for Duncan Turner Acoustic Research).

You can replace the Lock 'N Load battery holder with a standard dual AA or AAA battery holder. The best way to do that is to remove the entire Lock 'N Load battery holder ( I don't know the system, so I don't know if it will come out the back of the guitar, or from the inside of the guitar), cut off the wires coming from the battery, mark them with the voltage positive and negative, and replace them with the AA/AAA battery holder. The signal output must be put out through a replacement end pin jack.The negative side of the battery holder must be run to the end pin jack to turn on the pickup system only when the output cable is plugged in. Most shops familiar with acoustic guitar pickups should be able to figure this out pretty quickly, and if needed, Seymour Duncan should be able to provide wiring diagrams for the old DTAR system, and the wiring diagram for the new system (maybe). If your Lock 'N Load system doesn't have a microphone (and assuming you want one), Seymour Duncan should be able to sell you one. All of the DTAR systems had an available second input that the microphone is wired into. If your preamp is dead/non-functional, replace the entire system.

 

[ut0bct]

F412 -- Can't make a better choice than that! Smartly done!

My F412 is the only one I ever played: it is a work of art in its own right, with incredible sustain, mesmerising harmonics and perhaps most of all, despite the overall size of it, super-low action and almost the playability of a 6-string. I am 48 and totally self-taught: I will never be a good enough player to get the best out of it, but man… what a delight!

My only issue about it is that it’s so powerful and loud that I have to keep myself from digging into it as hard as it is begging me to… or else the neighbours will kill me… ;-)

The other Guild I own is my main axe, my beloved 1981 F50-R, which I got in 2018 from a session guitarist who almost cried when he sold it to me…!

Out of sheer narcissism, maybe I’ll post some pictures one of these days…

 

[GGJaguar]

Out of sheer narcissism, maybe I’ll post some pictures one of these days

Oh no, it's not narcissism. We love photos of Guild guitars so post away!!

 

[ut0bct]

To clarify, the Seymour Duncan Wavelength Duo and the DTAR Lock and Load are pretty much the same system, save for the battery holder. The "D" in DTAR stands for Duncan (as in Seymour Duncan, DTAR stands for Duncan Turner Acoustic Research).

You can replace the Lock 'N Load battery holder with a standard dual AA or AAA battery holder. The best way to do that is to remove the entire Lock 'N Load battery holder ( I don't know the system, so I don't know if it will come out the back of the guitar, or from the inside of the guitar), cut off the wires coming from the battery, mark them with the voltage positive and negative, and replace them with the AA/AAA battery holder. The signal output must be put out through a replacement end pin jack.The negative side of the battery holder must be run to the end pin jack to turn on the pickup system only when the output cable is plugged in. Most shops familiar with acoustic guitar pickups should be able to figure this out pretty quickly, and if needed, Seymour Duncan should be able to provide wiring diagrams for the old DTAR system, and the wiring diagram for the new system (maybe). If your Lock 'N Load system doesn't have a microphone (and assuming you want one), Seymour Duncan should be able to sell you one. All of the DTAR systems had an available second input that the microphone is wired into. If your preamp is dead/non-functional, replace the entire s

Many thanks for this post. I had read about the link between DTAR and Seymour Duncan but I hadn’t thought about getting in touch with the latter. I guess I’ll give it a try.

Very detailed explanation… thanks again. As a matter of fact I brought the guitar a few months ago to my local luthier who offered to replace the pickup for an LR Baggs Anthem for just under $500… he said he couldn’t fix the DTAR… but my guess is he simply wouldn’t bother… I have not removed the DTAR myself… I’m no luthier and I’m a bit scared of messing things up…

 

[chazmo]

One clarification to Kostas' post, ut0bct...

The DTAR system you have in your guitar is probably just the Wavelength under-saddle tranducer pickup, and probably does not include the circuit board with the condenser mic on it, right? The load'nlock system, as Kostas mentioned, is just a battery storage endpin sleeve.

The Seymour Duncan "Wavelength Duo" system I recommended to you (née "DTAR multi-source") has the printed circuit board with the microphone built-in. It works with the Wavelength UST pickup as well (which you already have on that guitar).

I believe it also comes with a battery pack which you would mount in the guitar (i.e., it replaces load-n-lock). This might indeed be a job for a luthier as I don't know what you'll have to do to the endpin hole to put this in.

Just found this one (of the original DTAR variety) for sale: https://www.bluestarmusic.com/D-TAR...ngth-Guitar-Pickup-wMic-and-Preamp_p_448.html

Best wishes in your choice. In any case, if you can fix the original system on the guitar then all were talking about here is upgrading. The Anthem suggestion is a good one, but I'm a big fan of the DTAR/Duncan Duo myself. Best wishes.

 

[chazmo]

Many thanks for this post. I had read about the link between DTAR and Seymour Duncan but I hadn’t thought about getting in touch with the latter. I guess I’ll give it a try.

Very detailed explanation… thanks again. As a matter of fact I brought the guitar a few months ago to my local luthier who offered to replace the pickup for an LR Baggs Anthem for just under $500… he said he couldn’t fix the DTAR… but my guess is he simply wouldn’t bother… I have not removed the DTAR myself… I’m no luthier and I’m a bit scared of messing things up…

By the way, Marco, I think $500 for the Anthem is excessive... I'm not sure about prices in your area, but I hope you can find someone cheaper. I'm sure someone may feel differently, but the wavelength duo is its equal and significantly less than that.

 

[ut0bct]

By the way, Marco, I think $500 for the Anthem is excessive... I'm not sure about prices in your area, but I hope you can find someone cheaper. I'm sure someone may feel differently, but the wavelength duo is its equal and significantly less than that.

I live in Europe.

$500 was split about 50% for the pickup (yes the wavelength seems to be marginally cheaper) and 50% for the luthier’s work, which is expected to be heavier than usual because the size of the existing hole for the DTAR is much bigger than what is needed for the LR Baggs: the excess space would need to be filled, which I understand is somewhat tricky. That’s another reason why I’d rather repair the DTAR or replace it with a similar unit - the main one being that I would rather keep the instrument in its original form.

 

[chazmo]

Got it, Marco. Good luck with your choices!

 

[kostask]

The key to all of this is NOT in the UST pickup, and/or the microphone (aka the transducers, as they are collectively known), it is in the preamp. In the original DTAR, this was a small metal box, to which power, and the tranducer's signals were fed, and the output that went to an output jack. It was redesigned, physically, into a curved (to conform to the sound hole of the guitar, on the inside), flat PCB, and a microphone was added onto the PCB. The DTAR Dual Source (as it was known when it was still DTAR) had a 3 wire input for another transducer (it was a microphone) used that input for a microphone that mounted inside of the guitar on some type of goosneck. If you wanted to add a magnetic pickup, you just ordered the DTAR Wavelength, added say, a magnetic pickup of your choice, and ran the output of the magnetic pickup to the 3 input pins on the DTAR preamp board. The big bugaboo with the original DTAR setup was that the controls for the , volume,bass, treble (may have been just tone), and input mix, were inside the small metal box. No way that it could be adjusted while the guitar was in use. This is what lead to the redesign to a flat PCB, and I suppose the decision to move to a board mounted microphone. The circuits are identical. The voltage multiplier is identical, so as long as there is no desire to change tone, or input mix while playing, the performance of the two systems is the same. The Duncan Wavelength Duo can be changed while playing, as the volume, tone and mix dials peek out from the edge of the sound hole.

To get back to the original topic, it should not be a major problem to replace the Lock 'N Load battery holder with a regular end pin jack. The large hole in the tail block can be filled in with a glued-in dowel of the appropriate diameter, if not a dowel, a shaped piece of wood, and a new end pin hole then drilled for whatever end pin jack you decide to use. Depending on diameter of the old hole you may want to use a plastic or other material to cover the area around the new end pin jack. As a personal opinion, I don't like the Lock 'N Load, mostly because it used a 2.5/3.5 mm output jack, which is non-standard, and I personally feel substantially weaker than the standard 1/4 inch (6mm?) standard jack that is used everywhere.

Duncan should be able to help you with all of the wiring information your luthier should need to get this done. I cannot speak about this, but you may even want to ask Duncan if they have any old Lock 'N Load battery holders available to buy, in which case you could just wire that in, and avoid any major rework. Another avenue is to find somebody who is getting rid of the Lock 'N Load pickup system, and buy the battery holder from them.

 

[rpc2mcl]

My fellow Guild lovers,

First of all, a big thank you to the community for the wealth of information that is available on this forum and the passion that breathes through every thread and every post.

I’m starting this thread on a topic that I know has been discussed in the past under different angles.

I bought a used F-412 from the early 2010s. I knew when I bought it that the pick-up was out of order, which was not that big of an issue to me at the time…. but as I started moving from my couch to the stage, that is becoming a bit of a problem.

The original pickup mounted on this F-412 is the DTAR wavelength lock ‘n load (https://guildguitars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/D_TAR_loadnlock.pdf) and the reason it’s out of order is because the previous owner forgot to remove the batteries, which started leaking and are now stuck inside.

The pickup is out of production and I cannot find it for sale on the web (neither new nor used…)… I believe I’m not the only one desperately looking for that piece of equipment! I called Guild who are supposed to get back to me with potential solutions (eventually) but I doubt they carry inventories of this pickup or spare parts.

So my questions are:
1. Did anybody replace this DTAR pickup on a Guild with another model?
2. Given the quality of the instrument, I would go for a LR Baggs Anthem: is that an easy replacement to make?
3. What are the better options in terms of fit into the hole? The DTAR required a pretty big cavity and I suspect it’s going to be difficult to fit a smaller pickup securely…

Many thanks for your advice…!

Marco

Marco, I have the same lock and load pickup. The round locking disc with the output jack on mine broke. Would you be willing to sell me yours if it is in working condition?

Rob

 

[chazmo]

Welcome aboard, Rob, but be aware this thread is rather old. You should try a personal message (see the envelope in the top right corner of your screen).

 

[ut0bct]

Marco, I have the same lock and load pickup. The round locking disc with the output jack on mine broke. Would you be willing to sell me yours if it is in working condition?

Rob

Hi Rob, thanks for your offer but as long as I won’t replace the pickup I’d rather keep the whole thing. Should you consider selling yours… I may be interested too… ;-) !
Best,
M