Saddle Height/Action

[richardp69]

I seldom buy new guitars, I just don't like to pay new guitar prices. But every once in a while I do. A few years back I bought a new Martin D 28 and a few months back a new Guild F 250 CE. Both actually nice guitars but they had something in common I just didn't understand. The saddle height was really tall and the Low E string height at the 12th fret was about 7/64". I don't often play up the fingerboard so it didn't bother me too much and I never minded high action. I didn't mind working at it and I think you can actually get a better sound that way.

But, as I've aged I've found that I like the Low E string height to be no higher than 3/32" and no lower than 5/64". I finally broke down and had the F 250 CE set up to that height and it plays like a dream. I'll tell ya, the F 250 CE is a lot of guitar for the money. I haven't tried the electronics yet but I didn't buy it for that reason anyway although I plan to play it at open mic tomorrow night.

Anyway, I just got to wondering if Martin and Guild are/were unique with the higher action right out of the box or if I just got a couple of strange actions on my guitars. I don't think I've ever bought another brand new but I'm just curious if others have experienced the same thing.

 

[ReevesRd]

I haven't tried the electronics yet but I didn't buy it for that reason anyway although I plan to play it at open mic tomorrow night.

Enjoy playing the open mic tomorrow. Rock the house!

 

[lungimsam]

Maybe they purposely make tall so the buyer can then lower to taste.

 

[GardMan]

Maybe they purposely make tall so the buyer can then lower to taste.

This! (IMHO!) Everyone has their own "optimal" action (for me, it is closer to 7/64ths on the E)... it's much easier to lower action set "too high" from the factory by lowering the saddle, than it is to raise action set "too low" from the factory, which requires either a new saddle or a shim.

 

[lungimsam]

My Ric snd Starfire basses all had crazy high nut heights from factory. I like to cut them down to a human like .022” measured top of first fret to bottom of strings.
But now they all have ZeroGlide zero frets on them which is even better.

 

[adorshki]

I seldom buy new guitars, I just don't like to pay new guitar prices. But every once in a while I do. A few years back I bought a new Martin D 28 and a few months back a new Guild F 250 CE. Both actually nice guitars but they had something in common I just didn't understand. The saddle height was really tall and the Low E string height at the 12th fret was about 7/64". I don't often play up the fingerboard so it didn't bother me too much and I never minded high action. I didn't mind working at it and I think you can actually get a better sound that way.

But, as I've aged I've found that I like the Low E string height to be no higher than 3/32" and no lower than 5/64". I finally broke down and had the F 250 CE set up to that height and it plays like a dream. I'll tell ya, the F 250 CE is a lot of guitar for the money. I haven't tried the electronics yet but I didn't buy it for that reason anyway although I plan to play it at open mic tomorrow night.

Anyway, I just got to wondering if Martin and Guild are/were unique with the higher action right out of the box or if I just got a couple of strange actions on my guitars. I don't think I've ever bought another brand new but I'm just curious if others have experienced the same thing.

7/64 is kinda high. The only published spec I ever saw from Guild was precisely where you like it on the bass E, and between 4 and 5/64 on the treble. All 3 of mine came out of the box that way, mfr'd between '96 & '04. I also like that height, but it does leave room to go a bit lower. Since you sent it out for a "real" set-up, he likely checked the nut slot depths/relief as well, which has a surprisingly large impact on feel.

@twocorgis once mentioned that's a fairly common "factory" set-up height that he's seen in a variety of makes and not unique to Guild at the time. Thus my belief that 7/64 seems to be kinda high. "Raising the bar" unnecessarily, as it were....
Too tall a saddle yields too sharp a break angle which can be just as muffling as too little break angle.

Saddle profile matching fretboard radius is important, too.

 

[Stuball48]

Richard:
At tonight's Open Mic you won't have time to be thinking string height while playing, let us know how it played.
Wish I could be a listener - still love your CD.

 

[Rocky]

Maybe they purposely make tall so the buyer can then lower to taste.

Back before the big box store era, dealers (the good ones at least) were expected to set up guitars to the purchaser's taste. Martins in particular were set up high at the factory so this could be done.

 

[Guildedagain]

It's tall because loud wins in the showroom, same as nut slots that are too high causing sharpening of notes playing chords just below the nut, incredibly common, most guitars I'd say, but louder.

 

[GGJaguar]

And a lot of electric models come with 9's to make them more slinky to play. A Jaguar or Jazzmaster with 9's is just asking for trouble.

 

[HeyMikey]

I think 3/32 is standard and I can get it to that. However, Tom J set up a couple in conjunction with some other work and got it down to 5/64. Man, it is really nice at that height.

 

[Guildedagain]

9's (Fender) are twangier than 10's (Gibson), that a difference of 3/4" scale length explain most of the tonal differences between the two brands. The Jazzmaster, something having gone so wrong as to be dubbed "diabolical" by the late Jeff B. has the 25.5" scale but the Jaguar only 24" so 9's would seriously sound bad on a Jag, unless you play a lot of fast stuff on the treble strings.

Short scale guitars, Mustangs 22" scale, Jaguars 24" scale seem to be the sound of Grunge when overdriven. Likely Leo unwittingly created yet another musical style.

 

[drc]

what measuring device do you guys use for measuring the string height off of the fret? As simple as a ruler?

 

[richardp69]

I use a string action gauge I got from Stew Mac that shows it in either inches or mm's.

 

[SFIV1967]

what measuring device do you guys use for measuring the string height off of the fret? As simple as a ruler?

Automotive stores sell those little 6" stainless steel pocket rulers with 64th scale, they are great for guitars I think.
So 5/64th or 6/64th can be measured easily.



If you want to spend much more money many use this:

String Action Gauge - StewMac

Now in metric, too! The gauge used by the pros! Fast, accurate measurements for stringed instrument setups.

www.stewmac.com

Ralf

 

[lungimsam]

what measuring device do you guys use for measuring the string height off of the fret? As simple as a ruler?

I use an automotive .022" feeler guage for the nut height.
I use an automotive .30mm feeler guage for neck relief.
I use a 6" steel rule like in the post above for the 3/32 and 2/32 at the 12th fret action measurements.

 

[Guildedagain]

I like eyeballing because it feels good, increases hippocampal activity, and you don't have to reach for a tool that you have but that would be a lot of work.

 

[lungimsam]

I like to initially use tools to set up, then leave it alone. After a while, sometimes I can start to feel something is changing, and usually the truss rod needs adjustment. So then back to the tools and setup. I enjoy doing it. My hands are comfortable when I get the bass tuned to those measurements.
There is a way to do bass nut height without measuring tools that also works well. Not sure if it would work for guitars:
1. Press the string at the third fret
2. Look under the string at the first fret. If there is a big gap of daylight between the bottom of the string and the top of the first fret, you can file and lower the nut slot until you can just see a sliver of daylight between the bottom of string and top of first fret. You can also palpate the string over the first fret while doing step 1 to see if there is any movement. If there is movement, you didn't file it too low, so all is well. If there is no movement, that means you filed too low and the string rests on the first fret while doing step one. Can still be playable but might start getting too much fret buzz.
3. Do steps one and two for each string.