stolen Starfire bass?

[ukulelelab]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Guild-...p-/281134570434?pt=Guitar&hash=item4174ed1bc2

"..There is a scrape on the back of the headstock that has left the serial number illegible and the soundhole label is not intact.."

Stolen bass? Who knows..

 

[Oldbassguy]

That does not look so much like a scrape as a purposeful removal...
And how does one make the soundhole label go away without getting in there with some tool?
Makes one wonder about the rest of the guitar. They are asking a premium price for pretty questionable merchandise IMHO.

OTOH - It makes me pretty confident that I decide to sell my 67, I could get a pretty good price for it... decisions, decisions...

 

[silverfox103]

Obviously someone didn't want the serial # to be known. I would say it is stolen, no other reason for both to be missing. I let ebay know.

Tom C.

 

[fronobulax]

The issue is when was it stolen, if indeed it was. There is no law against possessing and selling stolen property if it was stolen years ago and reasonable attempts were made to return it. That said, this bass is definitely tainted and I would feel queasy owning it.

 

[silverfox103]

There is no law against possessing and selling stolen property if it was stolen years ago and reasonable attempts were made to return it.

I'm not too sure about that.

 

[SFIV1967]

Hans has some info about stolen Guilds in his database, also about such odd things like the removed serial number, always good to check with him as well. But I know he usually checks such things behind closed doors and not in public here.
Ralf

 

[fronobulax]

I'm not too sure about that.

You might be right. But the lawyer who discussed this with me - "it's not really legal advice because it is free and you just handed me a martini" said that in Virginia, possession of a stolen bass would not be a crime (possession of stolen goods) if the theft was reasonably believed to have occurred long enough ago that the statute of limitations on prosecuting the theft had expired. It was in effect, no longer stolen property. Successful prosecution would depend upon the ability to relate the bass to a specific theft (i.e. determine the original owner), whether an insurance claim had been paid (because the insurance company would then own the bass and returning it to the person who owned it before it was stolen might even lead to the crime of insurance fraud) and what efforts were taken to make sure the title was clear. The lawyer also noted that just because the serial number was obliterated in two places did not mean a crime had been committed. He also noted that a lawyer's job is not to seek the truth but to make sure that their client gets the best outcome possibly under the law.

In most states a pawn shop is allowed to sell an item after following established procedures to determine that it was not reported as stolen. I dare say we might not be having this discussion if the seller was known to be a pawn shop or another legal entity subject to similar rules.

Bottom line, though, is that there are things that are legal but not necessarily morally and ethically correct.

 

[Wilfred]

Exactly my thoughts when I saw this auction. Someone took a wood file to make the serial number disappear, and probably another tool remove the label from the cavity. Nice bass, and always nice to think about the stories a vintage instrument coud tell, but this story might be fishy. It would never feel right to me.

 

[Oldbassguy]

Makes me wonder what else about the bass might not be real. I don't know enough about the electronics, but seems like it would be easy to change out the pots... and the Hagstrom cover is just that - could you replace the innards of the Hagstrom and still have it look like the real thing on the outside? Sort of what some repair shops have done with Rolex watches?

 

[fronobulax]

Makes me wonder what else about the bass might not be real. I don't know enough about the electronics, but seems like it would be easy to change out the pots... and the Hagstrom cover is just that - could you replace the innards of the Hagstrom and still have it look like the real thing on the outside? Sort of what some repair shops have done with Rolex watches?

While that is technically feasible, I doubt that there is a crook sophisticated enough to bother doing so. Easier ways to make money with fraud and deception, IMO. I think it is more likely that this bass was stolen at least once since 1967 than that someone is trying to commit fraud. As far as that goes, you could say the same about any Starfire bass on eBay. How does the buyer know it is really the original Hagstrom?

 

[mavuser]

Frono-

Remember the red 67 Starfire 1 Bass with the Gibson volume knob (because he was to lazy to aquire and install a NOS or reissue Guild/Dearmond one...) from a few months ago??? This is actually the same seller. In the case of the previous red Starfire 1, given the condition and non-original hard case, his asking price was easilly 500 too high.

in the case of the current one for sale...not all mojo is good. If the seller could somehow prove that this bass was once stolen, and then returned to its rightful owner, with some sort of restitution paid for the damge it has incurred (best case scenario)...and all is now golden...i still don't want it.

and separate from all that, the bass does not appear to come with a case, and shows signs of at least somewhat regular use over the years. This is not an "under the bed find." if the bass had a serial # and nothing was fishy he's right back at the 500 luxury tax he is already known for, or more.

The seller appears to be a somewhat experienced & legitamite merchant, although I could be wrong, and either way personally im not a fan...he likely met whatever holding law in the state for buying and selling used/pawning, especailly w the serial # issue, and is able to offer the bass as is. But if im giving the guy too much credit, that would not surprise me at all. Still, even with legal clearance now, something technically could still come of it later. No real legal trouble just a big headace and more bad mojo. I'm very superstitous and personally don't want this bass for free, but if a good friend HAD to have it, id tell them i'm at like 500 bucks.

a patient and resourceful musician can still get a goergeous 1967 SF1 bass with the OHSC for $2,500. I could justify someone asking more for the right instrument, but I could not justify paying a whole lot more than that, right now.

 

[idealassets]

You might be right. But the lawyer who discussed this with me - "it's not really legal advice because it is free and you just handed me a martini" said that in Virginia, possession of a stolen bass would not be a crime (possession of stolen goods) if the theft was reasonably believed to have occurred long enough ago that the statute of limitations on prosecuting the theft had expired. It was in effect, no longer stolen property. Successful prosecution would depend upon the ability to relate the bass to a specific theft (i.e. determine the original owner), whether an insurance claim had been paid (because the insurance company would then own the bass and returning it to the person who owned it before it was stolen might even lead to the crime of insurance fraud) and what efforts were taken to make sure the title was clear. The lawyer also noted that just because the serial number was obliterated in two places did not mean a crime had been committed. He also noted that a lawyer's job is not to seek the truth but to make sure that their client gets the best outcome possibly under the law.

In most states a pawn shop is allowed to sell an item after following established procedures to determine that it was not reported as stolen. I dare say we might not be having this discussion if the seller was known to be a pawn shop or another legal entity subject to similar rules.

Bottom line, though, is that there are things that are legal but not necessarily morally and ethically correct.

Jamie,
Not to argue, but the Eli Lilly (pharmaceutical co family) coin collection had items that were traceable by photographs. Coins that were stolen in the early 1960's are currently being returned as they show up today. These are usually consigned to auctions, and then confiscated and returned to the family. However it is an industry ethics group that enforces and obtains legal action, not usually law enforcement.

Craig

 

[bklynbass]

I had a an interesting run in with this issue a while ago. I had a '78 jazz bass that I bought on ebay but then decided to sell because I didn't really dig it. The auction ended and the buyer contacted me to tell me that he would be coming from boston to new york anyway, that he would be renting a car and would come by to pick it up in person and give me the cash. I told him I had to leave for a gig by by 6:00. He says he'll get there by 4, then shows up an hour late in a giant rented SUV, comes up to my apartment in brooklyn, then announces that he's not there to pay me, he's there to take the bass that was stolen from him and is rightfully his, and that he's got pictures to prove it. My wife and I tell him that stolen or not, he's come into our house under false pretenses and tell him to leave. It occurred to me that we'd let a stranger into our house and he wasn't acting completely stable. He leaves, then calls the cops. They show up, he shows them pictures of him playing what looks like the bass I was selling, as well as a sales receipt from a boston music store, but the serial number was off by one number. The cops tell him they can't confiscate it from me based on what he has shown them, but if he presents compelling evidence that it is his, they will be able to confiscate it from me and he will then be given a chance to prove it is his before a judge, at which point the bass will be either handed over to him or given back to me. He finally leaves, and I leave for my gig, not in a very good mood.

the next day he calls me to apologize for how he handled the situation. I tell him I understand, that people get irrational when it comes to instruments and that I believe that it the bass was stolen from him and offer to sell it to him for what I paid for it (far less than my ending price on ebay). He says, no by law it's his and he shouldn't have to pay me for it, and he intends to get a "correct" receipt, have the police confiscate it from me and then prove in a court of law that it's his. Out of principle. Keep in mind, he'd already spent hundreds of dollars to rent a car and drive to new york on his botched hijack rescue mission. Months go by, I call the guy a few times, never hear back. I call the police at the local precinct who know about the case and they say that since the guy hasn't taken any further action and I've made a good faith attempt to work with him and contact him to go ahead and sell the bass again. I call him one last time, leave him a message letting him know I'm moving on with selling the bass. I went ahead and traded it for the '70 M-85 II that I now currently own. All's well that ends well, but I hope to never go through that again.