Tell me about vintage HB1s?

[jcwu]

From what I've read here on the forum and online elsewhere, the vintage Guild HB1s are "all that". But what makes them "all that"? Can someone educate me on the sonic differences between the vintage HB1s and, say, regular humbuckers, or P90s, both in solid bodies and hollow bodies? All I've come across is that they're "way better" but I'd like objective descriptions of the betterness.

Also, were I to look for a pair, how much would they realistically cost?

 

[krysh]

this is such a wide topic that can't be explained within a few sentences.
search youtube for general examples for P90, SC and HB Pickups (Lets take the Gibson P.A.F. as a reference).
In general not one pickup even from the same builder won't always sound 100% the same, even from the same model.
so compared to a P.A.F. the HB-1 might give a little more clarity and definition especially whith rhythm guitar on the Neck PU, whilst the Bridge pickup will give a bit more articulate lead sounds than a P.A.F.
but I might stand corrected. :lol:

 

[jcwu]

Thank you, krysh. Those were the two keywords I kept seeing - clarity, articulation. Sounds like a regular humbucker (if I may generalize) tends to mash and muddy everything together, whereas the HB1 gives you the "power" and hum-cancelling of a HB, with the clarity of a single coil?

 

[krysh]

Thank you, krysh. Those were the two keywords I kept seeing - clarity, articulation. Sounds like a regular humbucker (if I may generalize) tends to mash and muddy everything together, whereas the HB1 gives you the "power" and hum-cancelling of a HB, with the clarity of a single coil?

yep, I'd describe it as this.

 

[Los Angeles]

I lack the vocabulary, particularly with music and electric guitars, to describe in words what these pickups are all about.

So I'll make up my own.

Here's what a typical PAF sounds like to me at three positions - tone all the way to treble, tone half way back and tone all the way down:

Tone all the way to treble:
Chin ... Chin ... Chin ...

Tone at 5:
Kahg ... Kahg ... Kahg ...

Tone all the way down:
Blug ... Blug ... Blug ...



Here's what a 70's HB1 sounds like:

Tone all the way to treble:
Briiiing ... Briiiing ... Briiiing ...

Tone at 5:
Blaaang ... Blaaang ... Blaaang ...

Tone all the way down:
Grawng ... Grawng ... Grawng ...

You can't argue with science!


Anyway, I think that it's a mistake to think of the HB1 as merely brighter, because I like the full-fat jazz tones from them, and that's not really about the brightness.

I just think that it is more of a "full-spectrum" pickup. Lows to highs are all represented very well, iwth no dead spots that I've noticed. This is why you'll hear such tremendous diversity in style among HB1 players. From Grunge and Noise to electric fingerstyle. You can max out your amp and still hear the notes.

 

[Zelja]

I'll also add that the HB-1s seem to have more definition, a sharper attack than others HBs. The low end is firm & holds together as well, doesn't sound flubby & indistinct. This is a humbucker which can be used with fuzz boxes.

 

[GAD]

They're more magical. Try 'em and disagree - I dare ya'.

Oh - and about $300 a pair seems to be the going rate on Ebay.

 

[mad dog]

I know the full size old Guild HBs, not the minis. They have a spare sound, not the lush warmth of many older PAF types. The warmth is there, just not as obvious. My good buddy describes it as "the least mids I've every heard in a humbucker." He might be right.

Not soft and indistinct in the bass. Everything is in focus. It's when you turn these up that the magic happens. I best know how they do in a simple mahogany body type (S-90). The warmth really is there. Comes out as a hot edge, the beginnings of OD. The neck only spot sounds as sharp as the middle position on some other HB guitars, the middle is all hot twang. It's that hot edge that really distinguishes these p/us. At least in my S-90, these p/us make that guitar sound more like an old flying V than any other guitar I've played. The sound may start off spare, no fat, but at volume notes sing out and hang forever on the edge of feedback.

The only p/us that are at all comparable to my ear are the Lollar firebird minis, and those in truth are fatter, more mids. Both take the sound way into single coil territory.
MD

 

[Beat_Dominator]

I just helped my father with his shopping for a high-end amp/cab (he's going deaf so he likes me to help him judge), and after listening to the full range of Mesa Boogies, 3 Monkeys, PRS, Fender, Marshall, Dr Z, and Crate.... the "dirty" sounds we can get out of his realtively cheap newer Vox AC15 with my x170 are amazing. We both agree that it just "works" better than the '59 es355 he has and his re-issue les paul. Those two are a match made in heaven.

Saying that, I agree these HB-1's tend to not sound like a lot of the 'buckers I've tried. Too bad people haven't done nearly as much research on them as PAF's

 

[jcwu]

With all this love for the HB-1s, why don't we see more companies out there trying to replicate the sound? We have a ton of pickups made to sound like PAFs, but none that try to emulate the HB-1s?

 

[Los Angeles]

Well, the way they copied PAFs was by reverse engineering every little detail. And that leads us straight to a very big problem - both the smaller 60's HB1's and the bigger 70's HB1's are odd-ball sizes. They won't fit into guitars with "standard" Gibson mounting rings and pickup routs. Most guitars need to be heavily altered with routing to fit the 70's HB1's, greatly diminishing value.

Even if you copied the pickups detail by detail, they would only fit the Guilds that the originals were made for.

That means that there wouldn't be much of a market for them and the kind of custom tooling and hard work to get it done wouldn't pay off.

Someone earlier said that they are $300/pair. I believe that is now the low end for 70's HB1's without the bezels, screws and springs.

I just saw a pair that had bezels but did not have original screws or springs disappear with the buy it now for $400 plus shipping.

The rare sightings of 60's HB1's seem to be going for at least $200 each.

 

[mad dog]

I could be very wrong here, but these old Guild p/us strike me as probably not a mainstream taste. PAFs certainly have become so. I'm not so sure the old HB1s would. Bet you most players would prefer the softer warmth of the PAF types if they had a choice. These Guild p/u fall between categories somehow, much as Firebird p/us did. Having played a friend's original firebird, (then picked my jaw up off the floor), I wondered why more of these p/us were not seen. Maybe it's because they were tonally somewhere between HB and single, and people weren't sure what to do with them.

A buddy of mine put a pair of the old HB1s in a semi hollow type ... not so sure if I like it. Whereas in my S-90, astounding in many ways. I'd need to hear more of these, in other types of guitars, to know if I'm full of it on this score or not.
MD

 

[fearless]

I've had an SG with P-90s, a Gibson 335 with I forget what, but not PAFs, a Starfire with "mini" HB1s and an S-100 with HB-1s. I also play a standard Strat.

I have to agree that the HB-1s are less "middy" and more articulate than other humbuckers. They push into overdrive in away that seems more articulate and more "old school" at the same time. I love them. I also like p-90s very much, but they are quite different from the HB-1s. I'm not great at describing tone, but I'll have a go and say take single coils, add mids, bark, warmth and general strength and you have p-90s. Take Gibson humbuckers, scoop the mids a little, add snarl and clarity and you have HB-1s.

I'd also add that interaction with amp is a big part of the equation. I used to play through an AxeFX and set it up to work with my P-90 SG. When I got my S-100 and plugged it in without changing settings, some amp models sounded a bit muddy. Others came alive. I sold the AXeFX some time after so unfortunately I can't recall which worked best with the HB-1s.

That was probably no help at all... :roll:

Try Bluespicky's youtube channel to get an aural sense. He's got the 67 Starfire with mini HB-1s to listen to in there as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A-PHgXb ... re=related

 

[jcwu]

I'm not great at describing tone, but I'll have a go and say take single coils, add mids, bark, warmth and general strength and you have p-90s. Take Gibson humbuckers, scoop the mids a little, add snarl and clarity and you have HB-1s.

Based on this description, I would think I'm more into the P90 tone.

Thanks for all the pointers and descriptions! Even the Grawng Grawng Grawngs!

 

[fearless]

Just make sure you take my tone descriptions with a suitable grain of salt. I like P-90s a lot, but HB-1's even more (and of course your tastes may be different).
A friend of mine has an HB-1 equipped Starfire IV and I have an S-100. They sound magnificent in each. Richer in the Starfire.

 

[AfterGlo]

Hi. I absolutely agree that the HB1s fall between a single coil and a humbucker, but the ones in my 73 M-75 are more to the humbucker side - there is no doubt they are humbuckers, but they are unusually clear and capable of surprising spank. When I want more of the single coil vibe, I hit the phase switch (I presume I'm going out of phase because there is a notable volume drop, but not so much that it's an issue on stage) and I can cover much of the territory I used to go to my strat for.

In comparison to the seymour duncan HB1s in my 97 BB, which I still love, things don't get so grainy on the neck pick-up. Not sure I'd say they lack warmth, but I do tend to eq my amp differently, more bass less treble for the M75. In my opinion, the 70s "big" HB1s sound better. They also sound better than the mini-HBs in my old 66 starfire, which I no longer own, but it's hard to make a fair comparison between a semi-hollow and a solid mahogany guitar. They seemed much darker to me - not truly the sound I needed on stage, though I certainly enjoyed that guitar.

 

[mad dog]

Been listening a lot more to the larger Guild HB-1 pickups on my '73 S-90. Also to the SD pickups (59s, I'm told) on the Bluesbird. Where the SD pickups are pretty much the vintage PAF type sound, the Guild p/us are a distinct departure.

I may have unfairly characterized them on the "warmth" issue. The warmth is there, just minus all mud and the plush, bassy kind of sound I associate with most neck humbuckers. The neck p/u on the S-90 can literally do anything, depending on how and where you hit the strings. If I ever have a one p/u guitar, this is the p/u I'd want in it. These Guild p/us are also powerful. They come on very strong early on the volume dial. Along with the stock humbuckers in the Epiphone Riviera, these are the loudest p/us at my house right now.

The SDs aren't bad, but they're not even in the same room as the old Guild p/us. Nothing else sounds quite like them. Someone should reissue these. Jason L., how about it??
MD

 

[xilef regnu]

A question for anyone who might know: Were the HD1's used in Starfires, X model arch tops and S model solid bodies all the same p'ups? Were they treated differently 'tonewise' in any way, i.e. cap values, etc.?

Also, anybody here dislike these p'ups and wish to articulate "Why"?

Thanks!

 

[Jahn]

the strangest thing just happened to the ones i put in my SFVI this weekend. they "opened up." maybe because the caps weren't getting signal for, oh, 4 decades? But what used to be muddy and a bit weak all of a sudden woke up, brings power, and has a sharp cut to the beef. I LIKE. in fact, the bridge pickup started sounding weaker in comparison to the neck, so i had to bring the poles up to even out the volumes. that's good stuff. I'm happy now with my '67 Mini HB-1s in chrome!

 

[Zelja]

^^^^
Well I'm pretty sure pickups don't open up! I'd be looking at something else being the cause of the positive improvements - maybe a wiring connection wasn't 100% & somehow something has moved or improved & there is a better connection (never heard of "cold" solder joints becoming "hot" but...). More likely it's something else in your signal chain like a cable or something in the amp.

Do all the tone & volume pots still function as expected?