Tops "opening up"

[fronobulax]

I had a friend at a job long ago who was a kickass and regionally known/sought after bluegrass banjo player. He had given up on playing in bands at that time...he also owned a Santa Cruz PreWar OM. He brought it to work one day, it was fantastic guitar. He never played it as he played banjo, so he left it out in front of one of his sound system speakers, so it would get some reverberation and the top would open up over time...The top he said did open up by doing this, and not by actually playing it. Interesting!

ToneRite

If you believe instruments will open up and you are too impatient to play them while they do so you can spend money on a ToneRite or park the instrument in front of a speaker that is playing something.

 

[Westerly Wood]

ToneRite

If you believe instruments will open up and you are too impatient to play them while they do so you can spend money on a ToneRite or park the instrument in front of a speaker that is playing something.

I think he just was a banjo player and was not really into acoustic for himself but was a fan of Santa Cruz guitars, so he bought one. All I know is, he eventually left Tucson and went back to Ashville NC to play in BG bands regionally again.

 

[GGJaguar]

I've never purchased an acoustic guitar with the hopes that it would "open up" or sound better with age. If it sounded good at that moment that's all that counted. To be fair, I've had to get more than a few acoustics without playing them first. The one that surprised me the most was my Custom Shop Martin 12-fret dread. It sounded good, but not typical big boom Martin good. Oh well. I didn't play it much, but fast forward 3 years and one day I took it out of the case and there it was - big boom Martin. I think the wood realized it wasn't a tree anymore and was now a guitar (or something like that). It's pretty awesome now and I'd say it's the best example I have experienced of a guitar that "opened up".

 

[adorshki]

I believe acoustic solid tops do open up over time. I think it varies on who is playing the guitar and for what length of time, but generally, I have noticed a more open projection and sound the more I play my acoustics.

Even my 50+ year acoustic dread is doing something different sonic wise, even as of late. I can feel it more in the gut, and I am not sure if its loose bracing or what.....

Try some Immodium AD.

 

[adorshki]

I could think of a lot of variables that would make Segovia, Bream, et. al. think their guitars were opening up then dying over the decades, but I am more interested in how, playing 8 hours a day/365 they kept/keep their hands from dying from tendonitis/carpal tunnel, and other repetitive stress variables. Not saying that is a given to happen (hopefully not) but I am interested in how they kept/keep their hands healthy.

Proper classical seating position with guitar braced over the left leg puts the wrists in the optimum ergonomic position, after that it's the proper grip on the neck (thumb opposed to forefinger behind neck, not hanging over top of fretboard).

My very first classical guitar lesson was dedicated solely to explaining the ergonomics of the instrument.

Veer: One thing that always fascinated me was how the classical pros could get such volume out of their guitars. Hammer as I did, I could never get the volume that Yamashita and Parkening do.

It's counter-intuitive but the lighter touch with properly maintained fingernails produces better string vibration, besides the fact those guys' guitars were likely hand-made to order and naturally highly responsive. Also performance venue acoustics, miking, and sound engineering.

Sharon Isbin's version of the Concierto De Aranjuez is an excellent example of classical at volume.

 

[RBSinTo]

If opening up tops was so important, the manufacturers' custom shops would build their instruments with hinges.
RBSinTo

 

[Guildedagain]

My wacky luthier neighbor wanted to take to top the off my guitar - he's a violin builder - boy did I run the other way really fast.

Before this was ever discussed on the internet, it was widely believed that the vintage guitars sounded better with time because the nitro lacquer let the wood age, because "it breathes".

It's a thing many learned people agree on.

Acoustic Soundboard: The Sonic Effect of Time and Vibration

Does an acoustic guitar’s tone really change over time? If so, what properties of wood alter with age and affect an instrument’s sound and responsiveness?

www.premierguitar.com

 

[Guildedagain]

No science that I know, just anecdotes.

Except that the anecdotes are just based on science.

Why Guitars Sound Better as They Age​

Written by Heather in Acoustic Guitars,Electric Guitar,General Questions and Advice,General Questions and Advice



There’s the common belief that guitars sound better when they get older. But why is this the case? We’ll go through the reason in this article in depth. It’s worth mentioning though, that not all old guitars sound better than new ones. It’s definitely not a hard and fast rule. Some guitars can age terribly. And really cheap guitars probably won’t sound any better in 20 years. With that said, let’s jump into the reason why aged guitars sometimes have a better tone.

The Quick Answer​

Older guitars often sound better than newer ones as they dry out over time which causes them to become harder leading to a more resonant tone with better sustain. The increase in age affects the tone more in acoustic guitars than electric ones.

How Aging Makes Guitars Sound Better​

There is a process behind the idea that guitars sound better as they age. And it’s related to the condition of the wood. There are two main reasons behind why older guitars have a better tone. These are due to the drying out of the wood, and the density.
Both of these factors are related to the wood the guitar is made from.

Drying Out​

Wood is well-known for its ability to absorb moisture or dry out, depending on what conditions it is kept in. This is caused by the the structure of the wood. It contains gaps which allow it to absorb water into.
Over time, these gaps in the wood can collapse. Hence, the wood cannot retain as much water. And it’s this lack of moisture, and the process of the top of the guitar drying out, that causes it to sound better over time. This creates a harder and lighter form of the wood.
This is particularly evident with acoustic guitars, where the sound is much more dependent on the quality of the wood. Whereas, with electric guitars, the pickups are much more important.

Density​

Secondly. the density of the wood is also important. The way the wood behaves when vibrated changes over time. Of course, wood contains grains which hold sap in them. When the wood vibrates, causing the sap to break up and loosen. This allows the vibrations to move more freely in the body of your guitar, hence, creating better resonance and a deeper tone.

Do you Need to Actually Play it?​

So what happens if you just leave your guitar for 20 years and don’t play it? Will it still age in the same way?
Well, no not as much.

You see, the breakdown of sap leading to the wood allowing vibrations to occur more freely, only happens if you actually play the guitar. This is because it’s the vibrations that actually cause the sap to break down. If you don’t play the guitar, then it won’t vibrate, as the strings are not being plucked.

However, the wood will still age in terms of losing moisture. So the drying out process can still occur even if you don’t play your guitar at all.

 

[crank]

What happens is that over time you learn how to play the thing and, hopefully, you will eventually sound better.

 

[Guildedagain]

The guitar will sound better at whatever you play, you have to teach it. That's also another well known fact/fairy tale, that what you play on the instrument will affect its tone. And that not playing a guitar makes it sound dead.

 

[crank]

The guitar will sound better at whatever you play, you have to teach it. That's also another well known fact/fairy tale, that what you play on the instrument will affect its tone. And that not playing a guitar makes it sound dead.

Purely subjective, however, My G37 spent at least 6-years in its case in my basement and when I finally started playing again I felt like it had opened up. Maybe it was just because I hadn't heard it in a long time.

 

[merlin6666]

It's quite possible that guitars change as they age. I just have issue with the term "improvement" - what does that even mean? Example is my first "good" guitar that I bought new in late 70s that I bought new because I liked its crisp and punchy fundamental tone. I still have that guitar but when I play it now I think it's all mellow and full of distracting overtones. So in my opinion that guitar got a lot worse with time.

 

[GGJaguar]

So in my opinion that guitar got a lot worse with time.

My first good acoustic guitar was a Martin D-35. It had glorious rich tone with a sparkling top end. But after 10 years it began to get too "warm" sounding and to my ears was muddy. It was a sad day when I sold it, but it was what it was.

 

[gjmalcyon]

My first good acoustic guitar was a Martin D-35. It had glorious rich tone with a sparkling top end. But after 10 years it began to get too "warm" sounding and to my ears was muddy. It was a sad day when I sold it, but it was what it was.

So I wonder if re-topping that guitar with a fresh top would have brought it back to it's original tone?

 

[GGJaguar]

So I wonder if re-topping that guitar with a fresh top would have brought it back to it's original tone?

It wasn't the spruce as much as the bracing. The D-35 had 1/4" straight braces (lighter than standard Martin dreads). I spoke to Mike Longworth about this and he pretty much confirmed what I was hearing was a "thing" with the D-35. One of my friends experienced the same thing with his HD-35 (1/4" scalloped bracing).

 

[adorshki]

My wacky luthier neighbor wanted to take to top the off my guitar - he's a violin builder - boy did I run the other way really fast.

Before this was ever discussed on the internet, it was widely believed that the vintage guitars sounded better with time because the nitro lacquer let the wood age, because "it breathes".

NCL does outgas its volatile elements continuously over its life, so it does "breathe" in that sense. Also, the process creates micro-capillaries in the NCL, so its permeability increases with age. I suspect the most important factor in improving tone is that the NCL gets more brittle (resonance increases) and loses mass (less inhibitory effect on top vibration) during the process. I suppose at some point outgassing becomes complete, wonder if the finish eventually becomes "dust" kind of like varnish powder?

There was also a school that held that it lets the wood breathe, and due to its permeability that could be true, but it's irrelevant in light of all the exposed bare wood elsewhere.

Also, re the resinous elements in wood, esp. top wood, yes, they lose their volatile aromatics and turn to crystalline-like material, and lignins harden over time too, all of which contributes to top resonance.

Playing time/toneright stimulation gradually loosens the wood fibers (like folding paper back and forth along a crease multiple times) and glue bonds which also aid freer top movement. Hideglue itself becomes crystalline when hardened, which is why it has the best creep resistance of re-settable woodworking glues, but it also means it's a great vibration transmission medium at places like the neck joint and top/sides/braces/bridge interfaces.

 

[adorshki]

It wasn't the spruce as much as the bracing. The D-35 had 1/4" straight braces (lighter than standard Martin dreads). I spoke to Mike Longworth about this and he pretty much confirmed what I was hearing was a "thing" with the D-35. One of my friends experienced the same thing with his HD-35 (1/4" scalloped bracing).

Been saying bracing is Guild's real "secret sauce" for a few years now.

 

[West R Lee]

I've got a couple of theories on the subject, neither of which can ever be substantiated.

First, I believe that "opening up" is more a function of wood quality, but most of all, the dryness of that wood. On many occasions I've been concerned after leaving guitars out or in the case non humidified for several days in say 40% humidity. To my ear, there is a noticeable difference in just about any guitar with dryer wood. To me, I've got a few that simply sound way better when the wood is dryer. When wet, or even accidentally over humidified, they sound just a touch on the dead, or muddy side. I personally think you could take a normally phenomenal 40's Martin D28, put it in say a 60% humidity environment for several days, and it would sound a bit muddy.

Now to my completely unscientific experiment. With a new guitar coming with an Adirondack top, one night I'm looking at Ebay and find a listing from a guy selling a Tone-rite because he'd said he'd used in on one guitar and was done with it. He listed it in "as new" condition for $100 and it is, so what the heck with the new guitar coming and all? Now when I say "new" guitar, I mean as in the final buffing was done the day before shipping and it was shipped straight from the factory here to the house.......as new as it gets.

I played that guitar for a couple of days, loved the sound, but after much Tone-right study, decided to give it a try. With that guitar, I was shocked! 72 hours of non stop varying vibration in both frequency and intensity. Most definitely a noticeable difference to my ear. So at that point, I ran it for 3 days on my other four guitars, ranging in age from my '79 D25 to my '18 Collings D2. In those guitars I noticed zero difference. So my take was that if you've got a brand new one, especially with one designed to have a very responsive top, they kind of vibrate everything into place. It's otherwise impossible to simulate playing 24/7 for 3 days. I think that possibly, on a very responsive top with a guitar that has been neglected, they may help a bit. Otherwise, I think if you've got a 10 year old guitar that gets plenty of play, forget it.

But I could not agree more with what others have previously said here. I'd never buy a guitar for what it might become, especially at 65 years old, I simply don't have the time.

West

 

[adorshki]

I've got a couple of theories on the subject, neither of which can ever be substantiated.

First, I believe that "opening up" is more a function of wood quality, but most of all, the dryness of that wood. On many occasions I've been concerned after leaving guitars out or in the case non humidified for several days in say 40% humidity. To my ear, there is a noticeable difference in just about any guitar with dryer wood. To me, I've got a few that simply sound way better when the wood is dryer. When wet, or even accidentally over humidified, they sound just a touch on the dead, or muddy side. I personally think you could take a normally phenomenal 40's Martin D28, put it in say a 60% humidity environment for several days, and it would sound a bit muddy.

Definitely a "known" phenomenon with a logical explanation, the extra moisture in the wood does in fact inhibit vibration by swelling/tightening the top fibers and reducing "empty" resonant space in the grain capillaries.

Definitely noticable on my D25, relatively low humidity warm spring days bring out her best, the other 2 have almost never been out of the house, maybe 3 or 4 times each? But they also seem a little more resonant about a month after I've given 'em a humidity treatment and they've "normalized" a bit.

 

[fronobulax]

Except that the anecdotes are just based on science.

anecdotes lead to statistics which at best are a dismal science.

If I had realized I wasn't the only pedantic <insert self-deprecating mildly derogatory noun> on the site I might have made an effort to use the phrase "acoustical engineering studies which have generated data" from the OP and not attempted to substitute "science" because I was too lazy to type.