Torn about my D40

[mozzer]

I have a 1969 D40 (Hoboken) that's a little hard to play. It takes a little more pressure for regular and bar chords when compared to some various other newer guitars I've played. If I ask anyone supposedly knowledgeable about it, they just give it a quick look, tell me it needs a neck reset, and hand it back to me. That may be true, although I'm mostly happy with the action which is a little high at about 6/64 at the low E 12th fret. I had it set up a few years ago and I know the saddle is minimum height and the neck angle isn't the best, but I think it's stable. I like how it plays, it just plays a little hard.

Also, the soundboard is starting to belly ever so slightly below the bridge, which really concerns me. It was set up with Martin SP Phosphor Bronze strings (.013/.056) and I've used them ever since.

What can I/do I need to do? Should I use lighter strings, or will that require a new set up? I like the sound and it stays in tune for months and I don't want to disrupt that. I'm very leery about "one-size-fits-all solutions" and I'm actually scared to death about a neck reset as I'm not too interested in being a first time customer with my vintage guitar. It's not like it has a 3/8" action which needs to be addressed before playability.

I have played many other guitars, including high-end Martins and Taylors and I keep coming back. Many didn't even come close. I really liked the new D55/D50 STD and briefly considered a trade, but the upgrade is not in my budget. The playability on those was an improvement, but not tremendously, and the sound was arguably not improved.

I want to play, not collect. I just want to do right by my 41 year old instrument. Perhaps an instrument of that age wasn't the best choice for a player...

 

[cjd-player]

Welcome to LTG, mozzer.

6/64ths doesn't sound too high, especially if you're a strummer. You might want to check the nut height. If it is higher than necessary, that will make the strings harder to push down. If you capo the neck at the second fret, there should be just a couple thousandths of an inch clearance between the strings and the first fret.

If the top is bellying, I would definitely switch to light strings. That will not require a new set-up; likely just a minor tweak of the truss rod.

 

[wontox]

HI Mozzer,

I've got a '70 D 40 which had massive neck problems—same as yours with the top belly, and fretboard dive, but much worse, more than 3/8" at the twelfth fret. I shimmed the soundboard up off of the neck block to slowly straighten it out, and shaved the bridge, probably not typical luthier resolutions, but it worked fine for almost zero money. My intrument was so crapped out in so many ways, I couldn't have made it worse, so I had no qualms about working on it and potentially ruining a classic.

Anyway, if you're guitar is 6/64 at the twelfth fret, it sure sounds playable to me. You may or may not consider shaving the bridge and saddle to lower the action a bit. A truss rod clockwise tweak may help, but might create buzzing on the top frets. As far as strings— replacing the thirteens with elevens will solve much of the hard fretting, but will result in a bit less volume. I put the JP silk and steel elevens on mine and am thrilled with those strings—they fret and bend easily but have great tone. You really shouldn't need any set-up as a result. Hope this helps.



Wontox

Frankensteined '70 D40
And other heathen guitars

 

[GardMan]

I second CJD's opine... 3/32 is not excessive for the actin at the 12th. I play closer to 7/64ths. Check the height at the nut. I like mine even lower than most recommend, but it makes the guitar quite a bit easier to play. Also, to an extent, what you take down at the nut can go into a taller saddle, w/o affecting the action at the 12th fret.
dave

 

[kokotele]

I know I'm new here, but as a guitar tech who gets this question all the time, I can probably give you some answers.

If knowledgeable people have looked at it and says it needs a reset, it probably does. But if the action is 6/64" and your saddle is of reasonable height, then it doesn't seem to be the case to me. (I would normally prefer to get the action lower, 4/64" unless the player really strums hard.) There are some other things to check, assuming that your guitar doesn't have structural issues.

• Neck relief. You need little to no bow in the neck, and this is probably the most overlooked thing. Tighten the truss rod 1/4 turn if there's much bow and see what happens.[/*:m:1j4x33ab]
• Action at the nut (as has been mentioned). Hold down the strings at the first fret. The string should just barely clear the first fret. If you strum softly you can get away with action slightly lower than that at the nut, but not much.[/*:m:1j4x33ab]
• Brand/type/gauge of strings. Some feel softer than others. Some guitars just feel stiffer than others. I just switched to .012 Martin FX strings on my OM-style Epi and am in love with the guitar again.[/*:m:1j4x33ab]

Hope this helps.
Eric

 

[twocorgis]

Brand/type/gauge of strings. Some feel softer than others. Some guitars just feel stiffer than others. I just switched to .012 Martin FX strings on my OM-style Epi and am in love with the guitar again.[/list]

Hope this helps.
Eric

+1 to that Eric. I just tried the Martin FX strings and like them a lot. Haven't tried them on any of the Guilds yet, but so far, so good.

 

[kokotele]

Tunings can also really change a guitar. A good friend of mine had this same experience with (I think) a Martin.

He liked the guitar, but was never in love with it. Just for kicks he tuned down a step and said the guitar came alive, and was suddenly more resonant and that notes seemed to leap out of it. He speculated that the extra tension was somehow dampening the top. I don't know enough about acoustics to say whether or not that's true, but it's a reasonable hypothesis, I think.

Trying that and then playing with a capo might open this guitar up in ways you don't expect and make it a keeper.

 

[6L6]

Living where you do, I'm sure there are some top notch luthiers who can take a look and give you a "dead on" opinion. I'd do that for sure!

You're instrument is worth whatever it takes to make it right.

6

'74 D-40
'77 D-50
'06 D-55
'06 F-412

 

[adorshki]

I know I'm new here, but as a guitar tech who gets this question all the time, I can probably give you some answers.
If knowledgeable people have looked at it and says it needs a reset, it probably does. But if the action is 6/64" and your saddle is of reasonable height, then it doesn't seem to be the case to me. (I would normally prefer to get the action lower, 4/64" unless the player really strums hard.) There are some other things to check, assuming that your guitar doesn't have structural issues.

• Neck relief
  [*]Action at the nut
  [*]Brand/type/gauge of strings. Eric

• 
  +1 on EVERYTHING he said. Guild factory specs are 5.5-6/64ths on bass E, 4-4.5/64ths on treble. 'ats how my D25's been set up since day one. Also STRONGLY second the string gauge suggestion. Guild dreads were spec'd for .012-.053 for many years. Again, 'at's what I use.
  Have also read that Martin 80/20's for example are very stiff compared to say, D'Addario PB's, and they felt that way to me when the guitar had 'em put on once. Got rid of 'em in 2 hours and went back to the D'Addarios.

 

[adorshki]

He speculated that the extra tension was somehow dampening the top. I don't know enough about acoustics to say whether or not that's true, but it's a reasonable hypothesis, I think.

Been discussed here, and another reason that just going up in gauge doesn't neccessarily guarantee better volume/tone as is often thought. It COULD load the top so much it doesn't have as much flexibility to vibrate with. I'm pretty well convinced it would be counter-productive on my D25 for example, besides taking away its almost flamenco-like playability.
Wondering if your friend had a relatively heavy guage set installed when he did that?

 

[kokotele]

Wondering if your friend had a relatively heavy guage set installed when he did that?

Now that you ask, it's entirely possible. He tends to favor heavier gauges. I'll ask him next time we talk.

 

[mozzer]

Wow, thanks for all the responses - very helpful.

I measured again and the 12th fret low E is right on 4/32", so that's different than I originally reported. It's hard to gauge, but if I capo the first fret, I can fit 3 pieces of copy paper under the 2nd fret. I think 4 is too much.

I'm going to pick up a set of 0.12 D'Addario EJ16s tomorrow...

 

[adorshki]

Wow, thanks for all the responses - very helpful.

I measured again and the 12th fret low E is right on 4/32", so that's different than I originally reported. It's hard to gauge, but if I capo the first fret, I can fit 3 pieces of copy paper under the 2nd fret. I think 4 is too much.

I'm going to pick up a set of 0.12 D'Addario EJ16s tomorrow...

Yeah 4/32= 8/64ths so that's a tad high. Do the truss first then see about the nut and saddle.
Saddle's fairly easy to do yourself, nut's a little trickier. All you really need to do is sand a few thousandths off the bottom of the saddle, but you do want to be sure to maintain a flat and square bottom, and that the profile of the top remains in the same relative relationship to the bottom. That'll keep the saddle radius matched to the fingerboard radius.
There are filles for nut slots but I've done a little fine tuning with strips of finishing grade paper rolled into the width of the slot. You just can't work the 3 trebles with it, they're too thin. I only wanted to tweak my bass E slot a few thousandths after a new fret job.
Now that I think about it, we forgot all about that issue. How ARE the frets? All the advice given so far was based on the assumption of fresh (Standard height) frets...Go to Frank Ford's great site "Frets.com" for some insights on these issues and tips about how things are supposed to work together.
By the way due to many small clues I'm convinced those EJ 16's are what Guild actually used from at least the early '90's thru about -04 when Fender switched to a stringmaker they already owned. I still use 'em but I sub in an .025 G string (EJ16 comes with .024), that will give you the exact guage set of the Guild "L350". That was the "light" set for them.

 

[mozzer]

I put some SIT .011s on it this weekend. It definitely plays a bit easier and I gained almost 1/32" of the action back, but I liked the sound a lot better that came from the .013s. There is a bit of fret buzz and I was told the frets can use some work, but so can all the rest of the stuff I've been talking about.

Maybe I should just suck it up and get the work done, but it will most like me cost me the price of a GAD-50...

 

[kokotele]

Maybe I should just suck it up and get the work done, but it will most like me cost me the price of a GAD-50...

mozzer, you never really said how high your saddle is. If it's still tall enough all your issues could probably be fixed by getting the neck straight (either with the truss rod or some time with a little heat and a jig to get it straight), bringing the saddle down to an appropriate height, and maybe a level & crown if it needs it. It sounds like a lot, but it really wouldn't cost that much.

This assumes, of course, that there are no structural issues with the guitar. But even if it does need a reset, the above procedures can buy you some time before you send your guitar for surgery.

 

[mozzer]

Hi Koko. The saddle has about 1/32" left at both the low and high E. That's what I meant by "minimal". My most trusted guitar dealer said that it needs: a neck reset, a fret job, a new saddle, and some nut work (poor fitting repair) which will cost around $900. It has had a crack below the bridge repaired well, and also has the beginnings of separation (finish crack) between the layers in the neck in the truss rod pocket. He said he would fix it if I wanted, but he thinks it would be better to get a new guitar (since I'm a player and not a collector) and has offered me $1100 in trade for a newer guild of my choice.

The newer american models are still quite high in price with the trade, but I have to admit I'd be a little sad if I ended up with a GAD (not in trade) even though they're quite nice.

 

[kokotele]

Frankly, I think that's a hell of a trade deal. Even if it didn't need the work I don't think you could sell it for anything like $1100.

 

[RussD]

$900 for that amount of repair work is fair IF it's by a world-class luthier,
someone like this: http://www.erlewineguitars.com/pgs/repair.htm or
this http://www.galloupguitars.com/acoustic-guitar-repair.htm
Otherwise, you might want to shop around a bit.

Otherwise,everything kokotele said! +1

 

[playsvintageguilds]

"Just for kicks he tuned down a step and said the guitar came alive, and was suddenly more resonant and that notes seemed to leap out of it. "

What exactly is this...? :?
You tune the guitar down...like...an octave...then set a capo on the 1st fret and play it like normal or what ?
I have heard this a couple times.
Please,walk us beginners through this process...
Thanks,
~ R

 

[kokotele]

"Just for kicks he tuned down a step and said the guitar came alive, and was suddenly more resonant and that notes seemed to leap out of it. "

What exactly is this...? :?
You tune the guitar down...like...an octave...then set a capo on the 1st fret and play it like normal or what ?
I have heard this a couple times.
Please,walk us beginners through this process...
Thanks,
~ R

Nothing like an octave. Those strings would flap in the breeze! He tuned down a half step or a step.

He speculated that the reduced tension allowed the top to vibrate more. I suspect that may be part of the cause, but that it's also likely that the top and/or the entiretone chamber are tuned to that lower pitch.