Truss rod question for a guitar that's had a neck reset

[WC_Guitarist]

Oh my my... I am getting into some interesting and uncharted waters. I have a lovely little M-20 from 1965 at home for a three day inspection. The guitar has been fully restored (according to seller who is trustworthy). It has had a neck reset, new bridge, new bridge plate, bone nut, bone saddle. It plays beautifully and sounds wonderful, and we are bonding nicely. The action is a tad higher than I want it, so I am planning to get it set up once I'm the official owner. I've got a question out to the seller about the truss rod, to make sure it functions properly before I buy. This guitar has the truss rod access on the head stock, which is new for me. My other guitars, both Yamahas, have the access through the sound hold at the bottom of neck. The M-20 does not come with a truss rod wrench or any accessories. It's just the guitar. WYSIWYG.

When a guitar has a neck reset, does it affect the truss rod function? How would I know if the truss rod is working properly? What do I need to know about truss rods in vintage M-20s in general. (Lay person terms please, I'm not a techie, but obviously with this question, I am well on my way to becoming an official "Guild Geek."

Thanks in advance for any input. Really appreciate it.

 

[jedzep]

Both of the truss rods functioned on my '59 and '64. Generally, when you find the correct socket to fit (get a nice set somewhere, good for many things), you should meet good resistance when turning clockwise, which will straighten you neck, and less, but not floppy resistance when relaxing it with counterclockwise turning. You would only know it was working by using a feeler gauge to measure the relief, a good thing to look up on YT.

If you decide not to keep it, I would really be interested to know why. I would also consider buying a lighted inspection mirror to check the condition of the bridge plate. Often, soft plastic pins and poor ball end seating cause the widening and chewing up of the pin holes, another vintage guitar headache.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the info! Appreciate it.

If I decide not to keep it, it will be because my intuition is telling me not to. Or because I don't know what I don't know, and if I don't think I can get enough information to feel confident about the purchase before plonking down my hard earned money.

This shop, because it's a consignment shop, allows a three day inspection period pre-sale, but all sales are final. There's also a competing guitar, at twice the price(!) at a different shop, brand new with warranty that sounds just as good in its own way and ticks all the same boxes. (Well, it doesn't have as much cool factor or mojo as a vintage M-20, but I'm probably not cool enough to own a Nick Drake guitar anyway. I digress... )

If I pass on it, and you are interested, PM me. I can put you in contact with the seller. The guitar turns into a pumpkin tomorrow at noon.

Janine

PS I also may just be too picky and neurotic to buy a vintage guitar. They all have idiosyncrasies, and the guitar's idiosyncrasies plus my own, may just not be a good match.

 

[Wilmywood]

One more suggestion on the truss rod - my '72 G37 takes no more than about an 1/8" turn to make a difference. Go an 1/8" at a time and give it time to settle. Also, if I recall correctly, the Guild truss rods are right hand thread, meaning counterclockwise is loosening or raising the action, clockwise is tightening or lowering. I think that's right ...

 

[WC_Guitarist]

One more suggestion on the truss rod - my '72 G37 takes no more than about an 1/8" turn to make a difference. Go an 1/8" at a time and give it time to settle. Also, if I recall correctly, the Guild truss rods are right hand thread, meaning counterclockwise is loosening or raising the action, clockwise is tightening or lowering. I think that's right ...

I only let qualified professionals adjust my guitars. I am not a qualified professional, ergo.... :0)

 

[jedzep]

Well, J, if true, and you have a good one nearby, it should ease your mind about keeping up with it's 'idiosyncrasies'. If it feels good in hand, and you love the tone, that would be about 90% of it for me. They are a bit delicate, lightly built, for sure, and you would have to be more committed to keeping it hydrated. I'm sure you know these things anyway, but thought I'd embellish.

A tryout period carries it's own degree of stress.

 

[Br1ck]

Don't go wrenching on your guitar if you don't have a very good idea of what you are doing. Do loosen strings if you tighten the rod. Can you have the shop prove to you that the trussed works? Do you have a tech that can check it out for you? On a lovely old guitar like that, I'd have the frets leveled and crowned as part of your setup. And you do know the Nick Drake thing is myth don't you. Yes, he had a picture taken with one.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

Well, J, if true, and you have a good one nearby, it should ease your mind about keeping up with it's 'idiosyncrasies'. If it feels good in hand, and you love the tone, that would be about 90% of it for me. They are a bit delicate, lightly built, for sure, and you would have to be more committed to keeping it hydrated. I'm sure you know these things anyway, but thought I'd embellish.

A tryout period carries it's own degree of stress.

Indeed it does!

 

[WC_Guitarist]

Don't go wrenching on your guitar if you don't have a very good idea of what you are doing. Do loosen strings if you tighten the rod. Can you have the shop prove to you that the trussed works? Do you have a tech that can check it out for you? On a lovely old guitar like that, I'd have the frets leveled and crowned as part of your setup. And you do know the Nick Drake thing is myth don't you. Yes, he had a picture taken with one.

Thou shalt not wrencheth on thy guitar if thou does not knoweth what thou doeth. (11th commandment)

I did not get a conclusive answer to my question about the truss rod, which tipped the scales to the "not this one." Loved the tone. Loved the size. Loved the mojo/x factor. Did not love the leap of faith I would have had to take when buying it.

However, I was able to get two tiny clues to my next guitar - 00 size, mahogany b/s, for sure, top tone wood, maker, etc. still TBD.

I also learned that you can capo up the neck on a 12 fretter (even though this one was a 14; I tried out a 12 fretter at the shop) and the K and K pure mini is a "non invasive" pickup that doesn't require drilling or batteries. I'd say it was a pretty productive couple of days that ended up including a lot more than I bargained for.

Next!

 

[jedzep]

Sounds like clarity.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

Sounds like clarity.

As Helen Reddy would say "wisdom born of pain."

 

[jedzep]

I found it odd and unacceptable that the seller couldn't verify a functioning truss rod, especially in light of the neck reset. I'm re-reading your original post, and, for one thing, that period Guild bridge is a beautifully simple shape, that unless copied perfectly from Braz RW, I wouldn't be too interested. Bridge plate replacement would be an issue for me, too, and I'd want to know all this work was done by a vintage guy.

I don't know anything about your priceline ranges, but it sounds like you have a fresh start. A few 'all original' M20s have popped up here, but I lust for the rarer M30. Now I'm tapped out, thanks to Martin's custom shop.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

I think you're kind of hitting on why I decided to pass, Dave. When I started to try to dig a little below the surface, I had no way to verify what I'd been told. Though I do trust the seller to be honest about what he knows (a well known local consignment shop with a good reputation), he had no way of really verifying things either. It was all taking someone's word who'd taken someone else's word, etc. That would have been a large leap of faith plus $1,850 dollars plus tax on my part, to be able to buy the guitar, so I could send the guitar to MY GUY for inspection, set up, etc. At the end of the day, I could not make that work out. Dang that Martin Custom shop! Those bast---ds!!! There's a Martin Custom Shop guitar I've got my eye on at the moment, too, coincidentally. LOL! And here I swore no more Martins. I'm still a ways away from that one, though. At least it's brand new and has a warranty. And I can get the spec sheet. I already feel better, but it's also more than twice the price.

Watch this space.

 

[jedzep]

$1850? Sounds like they're making up for the work that went into it. That's different from having a vintage restoration in play. My music shop does consignment, but still has the credentialed repair/restore guy.

 

[Rob Reilly]

This guitar has the truss rod access on the head stock, which is new for me. My other guitars, both Yamahas, have the access through the sound hold at the bottom of neck.

I have 3 Guilds, and all 3 have the truss rod access cover at the top or headstock. I think this is a more convenient place for it than at the bottom end of the neck inside the sound hole. You can do a more accurate adjustment there. My 1973 F212XL has two truss rods. I have a socket set similar to jedzep's picture, with some extensions and hex key sockets, kept in the guitar room and dedicated to only guitar work.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

...When a guitar has a neck reset, does it affect the truss rod function? … What do I need to know about truss rods in vintage M-20s in general.

A truss rod is a feature of the neck of an acoustic guitar, not the body. This is true for nearly any acoustic guitar, irrespective of whether you access the rod(s) at the headstock or through the soundhole. As a result, you can remove the neck, color it purple, put it back on, and whatever function the truss rod had prior to being removed, it will retain.

I suspect this M-20 did not have a truss rod but, rather, a compression rod. More modern dual-action truss rods typically are adjusted through the soundhole. Modern truss rods may be adjusted via the headstock or the soundhole. What *must* be adjusted via the headstock are compression rods (it is impractical to reverse the installation of compression rods). A compression rod lays in a slot beneath the fretboard, just like more modern truss rods. The threaded end of the rod is fitted through a hole that has been drilled from the headstock, beneath the nut, and into the slot in which the rod resides. A washer and nut are fitted onto the threaded end, and a glorious Guild Truss Rod Cover is screwed into place over the top of that slotted hole in the headstock.

The opposite end of the rod is permanently affixed into the wood heel of the neck. The straight, metal rod is then pressed down in that slot, against the (very thin) back of the neck, and held in that slightly bowed position permanently using a small block of wood. The fretboard is glued in place over the top.

This type of rod, this compression rod, has but one mechanical function, and that is to force the entire neck to bow backwards, in an effort is to counteract the pull of the strings, which is working to bow the neck forward. Tightening the nut (accessed beneath the Truss Rod Cover on the headstock) against the wood of the neck attempts to straighten the (slightly bowed) rod. This action pulls headstock back. Loosening the nut relaxes the tension (or “compression” of the back of the neck), and the neck bows forward again, especially under the pull of the strings.

How would I know if the truss rod is working properly?

That is an excellent question, and a critical one to get answered satisfactorily before purchasing an older Guild with a compression rod (or 2 compression rods, in the case of older Guild 12 strings).

What you want to avoid is the purchase of a guitar fitted with a compression rod whose threads are stripped, or the neck wood (into which the nut and washer are compressed) is severely damaged, or the rod is snapped (it happens).

A dramatic way to demonstrate whether a compression rod is functioning properly is to photograph a before and after adjustment condition. Let the strings be your straightedge, as a visual reference. With the strings attached and tuned to pitch, get a profile photo (elevation shot, side view, etc) of the neck that clearly shows the capability of a tightened compression rod to lay (or nearly lay) those strings down onto the frets by bowing the neck backwards. A second photo showing that loosening the nut allows the neck to pull forward again would go a long way toward giving me confidence that the rod is working correctly.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

Wow! Thank you, Christopher. That's interesting. So the modern M-20 also has a TRC on the neck:

M-20 Natural | Guild Guitars

Each M-20 comes with a hand-signed, numbered certificate of authenticity, and ships with a hardshell case.

guildguitars.com

Is that just cosmetic now? A throwback to the vintage style but adjusted through the sound hole? The specs say it has a dual action truss rod.
Just curious.

In any case, it was a short fling with the vintage guitar. Sometimes I think buying a vintage guitar might be more fun than actually owning one. LOL.

As one of my friends says, Stick to the well lit path.

 

[WC_Guitarist]

$1850? Sounds like they're making up for the work that went into it. That's different from having a vintage restoration in play. My music shop does consignment, but still has the credentialed repair/restore guy.

It seems a bit high compared to what I saw on Reverb/eBay/Google, but what the heck do I know??? Not a lot, apparently. Again, too much uncharted water for this kid.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

Wow! Thank you, Christopher. That's interesting. So the modern M-20 also has a TRC on the neck:

M-20 Natural | Guild Guitars

Each M-20 comes with a hand-signed, numbered certificate of authenticity, and ships with a hardshell case.

guildguitars.com

Is that just cosmetic now? A throwback to the vintage style but adjusted through the sound hole? The specs say it has a dual action truss rod.
Just curious.

No, not cosmetic. The dual-action truss rod in the M-20 is functional. Unlike compression rods, which must be secured into the wood at one end, held in a hole at the other, and “pinned” in place in a bowed position beneath the fretboard, a dual-action truss rod is a fully independent machine. It sits comfortably in a slot in the neck, is not “fixed” to anything, and it is the builder’s choice whether to provide access to the adjusting nut on the headstock end or through the soundhole. Twist the nut one direction and the rod bows forward, twist the nut in the opposite direction and the rod bows backward. The dual-action truss rod lets you “force" the neck to bow in either direction, whereas the compression rod only permits you to “force" the neck to bow backward (you simply loosen the nut to let the neck bow forward again, and hope the neck hasn’t warped permanently in a back bowed position).

Compression rods have fallen out of favor, and dual-action truss rods have been all the rage for some time now. Many builders choose to access these truss rods through the soundhole for aesthetic purposes (they don't need to add a truss rod cover to the headstock). But it makes no difference to the guitar; adjustment via either soundhole or headstock works just fine.

...Sometimes I think buying a vintage guitar might be more fun than actually owning one. LOL.

As one of my friends says, Stick to the well lit path.

“Vintage” has a certain appeal, no doubt. But there is also a cost involved, especially with regards to maintenance. As you say so well, "buying a vintage guitar might be more fun than actually owning one.” Of course, every now and then, someone here on the forum might add, “the only thing more fun than buying a vintage guitar is selling one!"

 

[Prince of Darkness]

Wow! Thank you, Christopher. That's interesting. So the modern M-20 also has a TRC on the neck:

M-20 Natural | Guild Guitars

Each M-20 comes with a hand-signed, numbered certificate of authenticity, and ships with a hardshell case.

guildguitars.com

Is that just cosmetic now? A throwback to the vintage style but adjusted through the sound hole? The specs say it has a dual action truss rod.
Just curious.

In any case, it was a short fling with the vintage guitar. Sometimes I think buying a vintage guitar might be more fun than actually owning one. LOL.

As one of my friends says, Stick to the well lit path.

All American made Guild guitars, including the current ones made in Oxnard, have the TRC and adjustment on the headstock. Only the Chinese made acoustic guitars (GAD and Westerly Collection) have the truss rod adjustment from inside the body. I think a few owners may have added a TRC to these for cosmetic reasons