Veracity of the Guild Newark pickup reissues

SemiHollowCarrot

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Not intending to cross post or anything, but I often see problems like detailed in a TGP thread that the new Guild reissue pickups are definitely not the same as the vintage ones.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/new-guild-starfire-iv-guitars-opinions.1601622/

Problem?

I've played vintage Guilds with the new Guilds side by side and they sound pretty damn close to me. Not only that, but I've seen the innards between the two and the construction looks the same as well.

Figured I'd poll some experts and see what you guys think.
 

Guildadelphia

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I checked out that Gearpage thread and opinions are all over the place. What you personally think is really what counts. The consensus around here seems to be that they got pretty close on the Franz re-issues (they are definately not generic P-90 clones) and missed the boat on the mini-buckers; a big part of that being the goof-up on the output of the bridge pu. Don't know what the verdict is re the fullsize HB-1's...very curious to hear how close they came on those. My personal experience with my Newark St X175B is that it is a fine sounding, playing and put together instrument. How it measures up to the original vintage examples I have to leave to those who actually own or have played vintage examples...my hands-on experience with vintage Guild electrics is limited.
 

fronobulax

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I tried but I got something like 8 pages of posts to sift through. :(

But sometimes we get impatient with people who don't bother to read. 8 pages is actually fairly low for a topic folks care about :)

What it means for two pickups to be the same is a very subjective thing. Clearly the Koreans who reverse engineered the pickups thought the Newark Street and the vintage exemplars were the same, and FMIC signed off on that opinion. There are various people who do not think a particular pair of pickups are the "same" in spite of opinions to the contrary.

That said, my opinion is that the sound of the Newark Street Guild Bisonic is very close to the sound of the vintage Hagstrom Bisonic but I would never claim they were the same or even sounded the same. I have seen similar comments from folks in a position to compare the various guitar pickups.

Since Guild was always clear that the Newark Street line was "inspired" by vintage Guilds and not an attempt to "recreate" vintage Guilds a reasonable response to criticisms that the pickups are not the same could very well be "working as designed".
 

mavuser

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I think he meant 8 pages of threads came up in the search (not 8 pages of posts total). Pretty sure id get in my car and drive to the guitar store long before attempting to read all the info contained within 8 pages of threads on LTG. (Maybe approx 500 pages?)
 

Walter Broes

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If they sound pretty damn close to you, that's pretty much all you need to know, right? (that sounds a little agressive, but I really don't mean it that way at all!)

I've played the Starfires, and I used to own a 64 SF IV. Now, as a little disclaimer first, it's next to impossible to "isolate the pickups from the guitar" in comparison listening/playing tests, unless you make it a science project and you put new pickups on an old guitar, and old ones on a new guitar.

Playing a reissue SF IV, I remember my old starfire sounding a little less polite, a little ruder, and louder. Whether that's the difference between a first year hoboken built Starfire guitar and a brand new Korean copy, I honestly can't judge. Maybe if you put the new pickups on an old guitar, they'd sound more similar already.

In the case of the Franz pickups, I do have a little more experience. I have two old X175's, and used to own a third one. I briefly owned a sunburst NS one, and now own a black one. In pretty extensive testing at home, in the rehearsal room, and on stage, I found the Franz pickup reissues hotter, louder, and more agressive than the early 60's ones I'm extremely familiar with.
Not surprising after connecting them to a multimeter : the old ones I have, some measure out at 6K resistance, some at 5K. The new ones are a solid 7K. So no real surprise there.

On the first NS X175 I had, I had my buddy rewind the pickups in it to 5K neck, 6K bridge, and that brought them a whole lot closer to what I'm familiar with. Did it make the new guitar sound exactly like my originals? Not by a long shot, but at the very least it drove my amp the way my hands and ears expected it to.

On the new black one I got, I installed an actual old, early 60's pair of Franz pickups I still had. (lucky Ebay find years ago) Again, no big surprises, it brought the guitar a lot closer to what I'm used to in sound and feel. But even with the original vintage pickups, it doesn't sound as sweet as my old X175's, it's treblier, not nearly as sweet and pretty in the midrange, and comparatively speaking, it lacks dyamics and sweet midrange "bloom". It's a "harder", stiffer, more brittle tone, for lack of a better description. A little hard to judge whether the bass and treble are a little hyped, or whether there's midrange lacking.

My point being, you can't separate the pickups in the NS guitars from the guitar when comparing to actual Hoboken-era Guilds.

I will say though, that I think that for the price, the NS guitars are pretty spectacular instruments, nicely made, great necks, and I think it's pretty dang cool FMIC (who spec'd these guitars) didn't just put readily available generic pickups on these guitars, but they went the extra mile and cloned the old ones.

When I say "cloned", that means "cloned within a budget" I guess. What I'm saying is that I think the NS guitars and their pickups are probably as good as they're gonna get for what they cost.

And like I said before on here : they had to save on something. The finish is one obvious point, they're poly-something, and not lacquer. Apart from possible environmental laws that prohibit nitrocelluose lacquer from being sprayed in Korea, poly finishes are a whole lot less labour intensive, so cheaper to manufacture.
Did they really save on electronics? I don't really think so - they could have had Seymour Duncan, Lollar, Fralin or whoever do exact clones of the 60's pickups, but that would have put these guitars in a completely different price bracket.

Apart from some fancy models and the M75's, Hoboken-era electric Guilds are some of the most "affordable" classic American made vintage guitars you can get. So if you really crave the full monty, look for a vintage one.

But if you like what you're feeling and hearing (and seeing) in the Newark Street guitars, go wild, and get one! I think they're pretty great for a Korean made production guitar in that price range. Sorry for the looooong post.
 
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parker_knoll

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On the new black one I got, I installed an actual old, early 60's pair of Franz pickups I still had. (lucky Ebay find years ago) Again, no big surprises, it brought the guitar a lot closer to what I'm used to in sound and feel. But even with the original vintage pickups, it doesn't sound as sweet as my old X175's, it's treblier, not nearly as sweet and pretty in the midrange, and comparatively speaking, it lacks dyamics and sweet midrange "bloom". It's a "harder", stiffer, more brittle tone, for lack of a better description. A little hard to judge whether the bass and treble are a little hyped, or whether there's midrange lacking.

I've always found Korean semis kind of stiff feeling and brittle, but my only comparison has been vintage American. I've never really tried _new_ American - are they stiff too? My one new American hollowbody was a Gretsch Spectrasonic which sounded thin and terrible to me so I sent it back.

I wonder if it's the wood, the way it ages, the way it opens up over the years. I mean, there has to be a reason classical string players go overwhelmingly for old instruments. I'm sure there's some science here if we look for it
 

Walter Broes

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It's the sum of everything I guess. One of my buddies has a Westerly X160 Rockabilly, late 90's, and yes, that too feels stiff and sounds brittle and doesn't have the sweet midrange and "woody" sound of my old guitars. But then I've played the guitar Chris Fleming built for Dave Gonzalez (at the Fender Custom Shop) some, unplugged backstage, and that one kind of made me go "whoa!!".

And the reissue ES330's Gibson has been doing in the custom shop in the last couple of years are pretty dang sweet guitars, and I haven't heard a single negative thing about them except that they're expensive. And that's probably the key right there : I think if you want to go through the trouble to "build them like they used to", as in "almost exactly like they used to", it's expensive. The market for hollowbodies is small anyway, and if you build them right, in the USA, your profit margin is probably small-ish. And Guilds are a tiny fragment of a small market, and that's probably the reason we're seeing Korean reissues, and no US made ones.

By all accounts, the last USA Guild factory was losing money rather than making any.

Also, I'm fairly sure age has something to do with it, even on laminated instruments. But that's almost impossible to "prove", and a big can of worms.
 

Quantum Strummer

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In my experience "reissue" pickups are never the same as vintage ones. The vintage ones are, well, old…while the reissues aren't. :) Ageing changes things. Often the oldies also feature materials no longer available, such as particular magnet formulations. Or are constructed using techniques now more expensive to employ—that is, requiring more human intervention—such as loose-ish, scattered coil winding. None of this necessarily makes the new ones not as good as the old ones. But it often makes 'em a bit, or a lot, different.

IMO the reissue Franz pickups are on the spectrum of what vintage Franzes, in guitars I've personally played, sound like. Toward the brighter & brasher part of that spectrum, I'd say, likely close to what many if not most original Franzes sounded like when new. Note: the originals do vary. My particular NS Aristocrat, both pickups engaged, does the hollow, twangy Gretsch sound as well as any Gretsch I've played (I own a '57 Chet 6120). It also sounds a lot like the vintage Aristocrat I owned (and stupidly sold) decades ago.

The reissue "mini-buckers" are IMO kinda problematic. The neck & bridge units don't sound properly balanced to me. Individually each is fine, and both are again on the spectrum of what vintage examples I've experienced or owned sound like. But depending on how you look at it either the bridge pup is too clean & clear and needs more oomph…or the neck pup is too warm & throaty and needs more clarity. Given most folks' expectations of what humbuckers should sound like, and the kinds of music most folks enjoy playing on HB-equipped guitars, IMO the bridge pup should put out more midrange. ;)

I have yet to see or hear the new HB-1s in person.

-Dave-
 

Walter Broes

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Yes, there is that. Somebody goofed, and the spec on the small humbuckers is weird. What's even stranger is that it's been aknowledged, and it doesn't look like it's going to be corrected any time soon. They must be sitting on 10 000 pickups, I guess.
 

parker_knoll

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It's the sum of everything I guess. One of my buddies has a Westerly X160 Rockabilly, late 90's, and yes, that too feels stiff and sounds brittle and doesn't have the sweet midrange and "woody" sound of my old guitars. But then I've played the guitar Chris Fleming built for Dave Gonzalez (at the Fender Custom Shop) some, unplugged backstage, and that one kind of made me go "whoa!!".

And the reissue ES330's Gibson has been doing in the custom shop in the last couple of years are pretty dang sweet guitars, and I haven't heard a single negative thing about them except that they're expensive. And that's probably the key right there : I think if you want to go through the trouble to "build them like they used to", as in "almost exactly like they used to", it's expensive. The market for hollowbodies is small anyway, and if you build them right, in the USA, your profit margin is probably small-ish. And Guilds are a tiny fragment of a small market, and that's probably the reason we're seeing Korean reissues, and no US made ones.

By all accounts, the last USA Guild factory was losing money rather than making any.

Also, I'm fairly sure age has something to do with it, even on laminated instruments. But that's almost impossible to "prove", and a big can of worms.

Despite never having owned a Gibson, I like the look of those 330s a lot. They're not _that_ expensive. £2k here in the UK. The GSR Guilds were a lot more. and the ES330s have pickups made in the US ;) but maybe i'm not talking about the same ones.

Would be interested to own a T400 - I damn near bought one. But i'd like to be able to try it first.
 

Walter Broes

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Over here in Belgium, "cheapest" I've seen for those ES330 RI's is about 2500 UK Pounds, roughly converted. That's more than I paid for my two vintage X175's put together, refrets included!!
 

parker_knoll

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oh yes, i wasn't thinking vintage. All my vintage Guilds have been had pretty cheap :)
 

matsickma

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In my experience the old NYC and Hoboken are a special tone that can't get duplicated today. The pedigree of the wood, in many ways "inferior" to the better cuts available today are light, thin and aged. The vintage stain and clear coat does not dominate the tone as with the newer guitars. They early Guilds appear more fragile than the later instruments. They are special in the era and workmanship they were made.

One does not need to look at the newest Guilds to see the difference in the Guild manufacturing and builds. All you need to do is compare a Hoboken guitar to an equivalent early Westerly and you will see, feel and hear the difference right away. The Westerly guitars use thicker wood, different bracing, a chunkier neck and the obvious change of pickups.

The NS guitars do a pretty good job of a Hoboken era modern made instrument. I'm quite sure a new $5k Aristocrat will sound different from a late '50 Aristocrat even with the vintage pickups swapped. "Old world" tools and materials were used to build the early Guilds along with 50 + years of aging. That isn't something that can you can clone.

Most of my fellow LTG'ers may not agree with me on the mini anti-hum pickup but I have never been satisfied with the output of the bridge pickup on the Guild vintage instruments. To my ear the M75 and CE100D output is weak. The bridge PUP does sound pretty good on a 'hog SF5 but even that is on the weak side. On the other hand I really like the tone of the NS S-100 neck and bridge pickup. Their is something about the way these pickups cut through on the S100 that I really like. I get great tone whether I am using a modern Bogner Alchemist or a old vintage Guild Thunderbird amp with a pair of Altec 417B's.

The NS S100 with anti hum mini pups will sound different than a full sized humbucker but it is a good sound.

M
 
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Walter Broes

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Which factory are you thinking of? My sources told me New Hartford was profitable but then NH wasn't making electrics in any serious quantities.
NH, but then I must have misunderstood. Wasn't Ren Ferguson saying that in one of those interviews?

Matsickma, "inferior" wood, really? Back when mahogany was still mahogany, rosewood was from Brazil, etc...?
 
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