What is the lifespan of a hardwood acoustic guitar?

[Aerie]

This is a hypothetical question directed at those with a high level of experience. I would like to know the 'life-cycle' of a typical hardwood acoustic guitar and how Guild acoustics compare with other brands in this regard. I am not interested in laminate or composite guitars - or any acoustic guitars made of synthetic materials. The question is hypothetical because it makes several assumptions. The following control conditions must hold: 1. The guitar in question has only one owner. 2. It is not abused, misused, or poorly maintained. 3. It is played regularly, not stored away. Under these ideal conditions, how long (in years) is the guitar's rise to peak performance, and, does there come a time when a fine hardwood guitar begins to decline?

 

[evenkeel]

I doubt your question can be answered in hard numbers. X number of years to "peak' performance, "Y" to a decline. So many variables. Even within the parameters you set forth.

In another thread I talked about taking my D60 to a luthier with hundreds of old guitars. Well a few date to before the Civil War and a bunch are from the late teens to 30's. I played a few and these 20's/30's guitars were just jaw dropping terrific. And not just from the big names although a Gibson L0 from the 30's was pretty great. But I played several of the Chicago mass market brands, Lyon and Healy, Harmony, Washburn, etc. They all sounded great. One tiny Lyon and Healy parlor was unbelievable. Huge, complex sound from a tiny little box.

So, from a very small, unscientific survey. Given proper care and attention a well built solid wood guitar should last well over 60 years.
To come to it's peak??? My limited experience with that would suggest 3-5 years, depending on how much and how it's played.

 

[GardMan]

This is a hypothetical question directed at those with a high level of experience. I would like to know the 'life-cycle' of a typical hardwood acoustic guitar and how Guild acoustics compare with other brands in this regard. I am not interested in laminate or composite guitars - or any acoustic guitars made of synthetic materials. The question is hypothetical because it makes several assumptions. The following control conditions must hold: 1. The guitar in question has only one owner. 2. It is not abused, misused, or poorly maintained. 3. It is played regularly, not stored away. Under these ideal conditions, how long (in years) is the guitar's rise to peak performance, and, does there come a time when a fine hardwood guitar begins to decline?

I am not sure there is an easy answer to this question... there are many terms that would need to be more well-defined.

What do you consider "regular" play? A hobbiest playing a couple times a week in the privacy of their home, or a working professional playng out 5 nights a week?
What is considered "abuse?" Playing around a campfire? Playing out?
What would you consider "normal maintenance?" New frets every ~10 years? A neck reset every ~30-40 years?

Guild's only been around for a little over 50 years... compared to >100 years for Martin, and nearly that for Gibson (when speaking of flat-tops, which Wikipedia indicates were introduced in the '30s). So there aren't any 100+ year old Guilds around. But, I would be surprised if the "survival rate" of a "well-cared" for Guild was any less than a comparably "cared-for" Martin, Gibson, or other. After all, everyone agrees Guilds are "made to be played" and "built like tanks."

On the other hand... as discussed occasionally in this forum, the generally lower cost of Guilds might lead to a greater amount of "abuse:" folks might be more willing to take their "$500+" Guild places they would never take their $2000+ Martin. My '72 D-35 was routinely taken camping in the desert and mountains, and has been exposed to temps from 10F to 100+F on several occasions.

I have seven Guilds... ranging from 17-38 years old (my first a '72 D-35 bought new in '73). A couple are nearing the need for a neck reset. But other than that, I would expect any or all of them to outlast me. Hopefully, I'll pass one or more to my kids... and if the fates are kind, they'll pass 'em on to theirs, who'll pass 'em on to theirs, etc...

 

[fronobulax]

Interesting question. I doubt it has a satisfactory answer. I will note there are violins and other classical instruments still going strong and getting better after 300 years. I've heard guitars that pre-date the American Civil War.

 

[AlohaJoe]

There are violins hundreds of years old still playing and sounding better and better as more time passes. With regular maintenance and minimum abuse a guitar should be no different. We have three 60+yo Epi archtops in remarkable condition that are daily players, including this new looking 15 1/2" Olympic. I replaced a failing tailpiece and crumbling tuners. I have the original pickguard (in good shape) but didn't want to cut it for a pickup). All the wood, binding and finish is as new. I love the 1 10/16ths neck and play this guitar daily, although since the pic was taken i replaced the Asian-made Kent Armstrong with a real KA slimbucker in black.

 

[adorshki]

Bought all mine new. D25 has by far the most mileage. It's a Westerly. I've submitted my hypothesis elsewhere that playing hours equals "mileage" on a guitar, not just the chronological age. I believe an unplayed guitar will never develop tone no matter how old it gets. For the first 5 years I had the '25 I know it averaged about 3 hours a week. It "opened up" in the third year if memory serves, although I clearly remember the specific moment when I thought to myself "Wow, this thing's really humming, so much I can even feel it in the neck". It was shortly after the first fret job, that would be around 350-400 hours. In fact by that measure I figured it cost about a buck an hour to play it. :lol: It now has about 1300 hours (I stopped tracking so closely after I got the D40). At least 1000 of those hours were outdoors in temps ranging from 60's to high 80's, sometimes 90's. Had a complete second refret about 3 months ago, there's literally less than 5 hours on the re-fret. This refret was so good that it literally feels brand new again. Sustain is better than new. I'm into it for a total of about $1300 including the fret jobs and bone nut and saddle. That's what it listed for new. I wonder why people keep talking about neck re-sets, I'll be surprised if it ever needs one. I do always use the light gauge originally spec'd for it by Guild. (.012-.053)
This guitar has been PLAYED. The top shows it. I vary from Richie Havens hard strumming to flamenco finger picking. I cannot conceive of any situation in which I'd sell it. I am sure it will be a family heirloom when I'm no longer around to play it.
F65 probably has a couple hundred hours on it and is close to really needing a fret job, but I haven't noticed it developing tone the way the D25 did, I believe that may be due to its all- maple construction. It has a clarity the '25 doesn't have however. It has a very slight belly, this may be because I kept it strung with lights instead of extra lights (.010-.047) as spec'd by Guild for about 5 years. Didn't seem to affect the neck though.
The D40 also has relatively low hours but it has developed it's tone from new in a more steady manner than I perceived with the '25. It's getting louder but the '25 still has better sustain and "wood" tone, and "chiminess" if it's strung with Martin 80/20's. The '40 is a solid back compared to laminated archbacks for the other two.
As noted in my sig, I bought all these new. I wanted to know EXACTLY what had happened to them over their lifetimes. Each one was acquired at a real music store at very reasonable prices compared to list, about 25-30% off.

 

[Aerie]

Thanks adorshki! I never stopped to consider how much my F50R cost to play - per hour. :lol: I don't think I'll even try. Too sobering. Thanks for the info. The trend on 'opening up' seems to be between 2 and 6 years. No information on decay of performance is yet forthcoming. This is most probably due to the fact that Guild guitars can only be half-a-century old, and a fine instrument can potentially last a century or more. I understand violins with ages of several centuries are around and still being played. Violins, however, are not under as much constant stress as steel-string flat tops. Large concert grand harps with 47 strings have a very short lifespan relative to their very high cost. (That's why I limited the question to hardwood acoustic flat tops.) :wink:

 

[fronobulax]

No information on decay of performance is yet forthcoming.

Have you actually observed that or are you postulating based upon entropy? My sense is that when an instrument fails to perform to a minimum standard it becomes trash or a wall hanger Thus, at any given time, the surviving instruments are those that have had no decay for whatever reason. So, if the only ones you can observe are the survivors, how do you determine decay?

Violins, however, are not under as much constant stress as steel-string flat tops. Large concert grand harps with 47 strings have a very short lifespan relative to their very high cost.

Point taken. Since I'm not a mechanical engineer, I could be all wrong, but it seems to me that if the choice is to compare a steel-string guitar to something, a violin family instrument is closer than a harp.

I'll also note that if you are into old instruments there are many surviving examples that play well today. It is just that violins have a lot of visibility.

 

[taabru45]

Just play the darn thing for the next hundred years and let us know. :lol: :lol: Steffan

 

[chazmo]

I think the non-scientific answer to the question is ... a lot longer than any one of us will ever be around to judge.

Most woods, and as far as I know all common tonewoods, seem to maintain their integrity for a very long time. It also seems that hide glue holds well too unless subjected to high heat or humidity. It's really the plastics and metals in guitar construction that present a longevity problem. I picked up an old Gibson archtop recently and a 6" piece of binding just fell right off the neck. And most tuners eventually wear out.

 

[chazmo]

Another thing I forgot to mention is the finishes used on guitars... Nitrocellulose seems to be pretty long-lasting, but over time it will often cloud and craze in time. My understanding is that it gets pretty brittle and any geometry changes in the guitar over the years (due to humidity or temperature) will cause crazing and cracking damage to the finish. I don't know if anyone has a bead on how long the modern UV-cured polyester finishes will last. I don't think those ever get brittle, but I'll bet they'll get tacky or something over time. Don't know.

And yet another thing.... Guitar necks... It seems like any discussion of guitar longevity ought to investigate the effect of bowing and twisting over time. I guess the bottom line is that guitar geometry is not stable over the long run since (most/all) guitar necks bow forward eventually.

 

[JimbowF212]

I think Chas hit the nail on the head! I just got my dad's old Martin D-28 that was made back in 1966 back from the repair shop and Kathy Currier the repair gal was able to put it right back to original operating condition with out a problem. Neck resets and the like are things inherent with the materials used to make the Guitar and caused by the steel in the strings. The synthetic materials used will not out last the woods at least that has been my experience. I have only heard of one guitar that the string tension broke the neck on and that was a Gibson my dad had when he was young he got it new and it was about 3 mos old when this happened, they said it was his fault and they wouldn't honor their warrenty, and after that he never owned another Gibson. He later took the guitar to my Grandfather and He made a new neck for it and played it for many years. So guitars do hold up for a long time and can be repaired if needed.

 

[Russell Letson]

With respect, the basic question is nearly meaningless, and the conditions are mostly irrelevant.

I cannot think of any way of establishing or measuring "peak performance" for a guitar, since "performance" is not a single characteristic, nor can it be defined satisfactorily for more than one person--nor will even a single person's notion of "performance" necessarily remain static over the long term. I am the original owner of a 1965 D-40 (purchased in 1967), and while I value it highly, my attitude toward it has not always been exactly the same. I am pretty sure that had I made careful recordings of the guitar over the last 40+ years, I would detect changes in its sound, and that I would think them changes for the better. But I didn't, so that's just conjecture. I do know that I currently find it a very pleasing guitar, particularly for slack key.

The only useful notion of "lifespan" I can imagine for a guitar has to do with physical structure, and the violin family demonstrates how the components of an instrument can be maintained and repaired over centuries as glue joints deteriorate or cracks develop or tuning pegs wear out. The modern guitar hasn't been around as long as the fiddle, but I own two Washburns from around 1900, and they have had neck resets, cracks cleated, fingerboards and bridges and frets repaired or replaced. I have a 1920 Martin that is all original except for a replaced bridge. I suspect that their characters were established long before I bought them, and I see no reason that they should not remain not just playable but very satisfying for the player who acquires them from my estate later in this century.

 

[adorshki]

And yet another thing.... Guitar necks... It seems like any discussion of guitar longevity ought to investigate the effect of bowing and twisting over time. I guess the bottom line is that guitar geometry is not stable over the long run since (most/all) guitar necks bow forward eventually.

HI Chaz: With all due respect is there a source for that statement? I'm sincerely curious, since my suspicion is that neck bowing is a function of excess string tension caused by the tendency for people to use medium and heavy gauge strings in the pursuit of volume. As I grew to understand my '25 I came to believe that there was a lot more engineering involved in the design of the guitar than a casual user might suspect, and that one of the reasons the factory would actually publish "string specs" would be for that reason of the best durability of the construction. My understanding is the truss should be able to compensate all bowing problems under its intended design conditions.

 

[adorshki]

Large concert grand harps with 47 strings have a very short lifespan relative to their very high cost. (That's why I limited the question to hardwood acoustic flat tops.) :wink:

The whole issue of wood warping under stress brought piano soundboards to mind (essentially a harp). Cheap ones warp, but I understand the best ones do not. Goes right back to whole quality of materials/construction issue.

 

[Ridgemont]

And yet another thing.... Guitar necks... It seems like any discussion of guitar longevity ought to investigate the effect of bowing and twisting over time. I guess the bottom line is that guitar geometry is not stable over the long run since (most/all) guitar necks bow forward eventually.

HI Chaz: With all due respect is there a source for that statement? I'm sincerely curious, since my suspicion is that neck bowing is a function of excess string tension caused by the tendency for people to use medium and heavy gauge strings in the pursuit of volume. As I grew to understand my '25 I came to believe that there was a lot more engineering involved in the design of the guitar than a casual user might suspect, and that one of the reasons the factory would actually publish "string specs" would be for that reason of the best durability of the construction. My understanding is the truss should be able to compensate all bowing problems under its intended design conditions.

It was also my understanding that the main issue of neck warping was do to excess tension either from the truss rod or the strings. The force of the two, while opposite in direction must be in perfect balance so that the net force is a big fat goose egg.

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

I think you guys are leaving the neck block out of the equation... :wink:

 

[adorshki]

I would like to know the 'life-cycle' of a typical hardwood acoustic guitar and how Guild acoustics compare with other brands in this regard. ....does there come a time when a fine hardwood guitar begins to decline?

Another way to look at this is "how do you define life cycle". In my opinion that would really mean "how many times can it be re-fretted/re-finished/repaired before the sound quality is unaceptable or it simply is no longer playable, regardless of cost" since cost is an owner decision independant of the actual usability issue. The one point you raised I can't answer is "compared to other brands". But as far as Guilds specifically I've seen any number of threads here about re-built Guilds and can only re-call seeing one about a guitar that probably wasn't worth recovering, and a few about GAD's with build quality issues which weren't handled through warranty repair, including one that was warranty replaced. Aagin, the critical issue being "original build quality".

 

[adorshki]

I think you guys are leaving the neck block out of the equation... :wink:

In my case you're correct, hadn't thought of that, can you expand, is there a potential source of wear internally where the truss is braced? Thanks!

 

[Aerie]

I would like to know the 'life-cycle' of a typical hardwood acoustic guitar and how Guild acoustics compare with other brands in this regard. ....does there come a time when a fine hardwood guitar begins to decline?

Another way to look at this is "how do you define life cycle". In my opinion that would really mean "how many times can it be re-fretted/re-finished/repaired before the sound quality is unaceptable or it simply is no longer playable, regardless of cost" since cost is an owner decision independant of the actual usability issue. The one point you raised I can't answer is "compared to other brands". But as far as Guilds specifically I've seen any number of threads here about re-built Guilds and can only re-call seeing one about a guitar that probably wasn't worth recovering, and a few about GAD's with build quality issues which weren't handled through warranty repair, including one that was warranty replaced. Aagin, the critical issue being "original build quality".

If re-frets, repairs, realignments, part replacements, are all taken into account - is there a point when the instrument has gradually evolved into a (relatively) new instrument? It reminds me of the story of the ship "Queen Mary". The ship sits docked permanently. Meanwhile, every week, another part is replaced. Eventually, while it is still the "Queen Mary", all parts original to the ship will have been replaced. So the question is mostly a philosophical one. Everyone will have their own opinion.